Official Luthiers Forum!

I was playing my Yamaha FG1500 a bunch the past few days. For those that do not know; FG1500's were the best of the Yamaha breed back in the 70's. The Purfling and Rosette are made up of 10's of thousands of pieces of wood, the backs and sides are Solid Brazilian Rosewood with a very nice D35ish Maple inset, the tuners were handmade and you cannot find finer. A long while ago I had showed the guitar to a friend that owns an Uber-high end store. He said wow it really is nice, bummer they used a Spanish heel.
Yamaha custom shop guys were trained by the Spanish best. I am sure on the high end models they would not do the heel to "cut corners", save money. They id what they were taught.
I note some high end Luthiers use them, some don't. Seems you would use the wood so much more efficiently. With the proper bond I could see it being stronger than a one piece neck.
Thanks in advance for the Egjamucation

I guess the Yamaha FG1500 is a Steel string? Nothing to do with cutting corners. It's more about using the appropriate joint for a particular type of Guitar. Spanish models (Nylon) invariably use the Spanish slipper foot, largely because of building method and because neck resets are much less of an issue than on steel strung instruments.
I'll let the steel string builders answer if Yamaha should have used the Spanish foot for such a Guitar.

The problem with steel string guitars and Spanish heels is that there's likely to be a bone saw in the guitars future.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier ... eset1.html

Over time wood creeps under load. That is, it takes on a new shape, it doesn't just spring all the way back when the strings a slack. So, steel strings guitars have neck resets in their future. As the link shows, this isn't so easy with Spanish Heels.

That said, there are some things that can be done to postpone the problem- maybe to the point where it won't matter. But, in general, it's not a good idea to use a Spanish heel on a steel string guitar.

More data points are always good though. How's the action on your guitar and how high are the strings off the soundboard at the bridge?

John

Even classicals can need a reset, although they used to just get by with a thick fingerboard. When the action got too high you removed the frets, planed it down at the nut end, and re-fretted.

OTOH, I used to make steel strings with a Spanish-type neck joint, and have had little problem with them. The ones that have come back were abused, and had the dings to prove it. Any neck can get knocked in.

I recently got the idea that it would be possible to build a removable neck on a solera in the traditional style. Mortice a block on the end of the neck, shim it out 2mm to make the side slot, and go on from there. I'm working on one like that now, to use a bolt-on neck. I'll let you know how it works out.

The advantage, of course, is that you get all the neck angles and alignments established up front, and it's much easier to do, so in that sense it's like working on the solera, but you end up with a neck that can be easily removed, finished seperately from the body, and adjusted when needed. The best of all possible worlds...

John, are you talking about a Spanish Heel, like alot of classicals are built, where the neck, and neck block are one piece, with the sides notched into it, or a stacked heel where a piece, or pieces of wood are glued to a thin board to create the heel? Alot of builders use stacked heels.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

?? Most Spanish heels are constructed with stacked heel. One piece necks are unusual. It's very wasteful of material. (In steel strings too, but I'd be in a tiny crowd ranting about that. I prefer the look of a stacked heel at this point, after building about a half dozen classicals or flamencos.)

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

The FG1500 is a Steel String. Mine from '72. The neck angle is fine. I only used it as an example of a fine, top of line factory handbuilt that had a "stacked Heel" I guess you are saying I should call it a stacked heel, not a Spanish heel? What is the difference? The build(s) are likely M/T neck joints. I am getting that there is a "argument" whether they increase or decrease strength?

This is a Spanish Heel. (It's also stacked) The sides go into the slots.
(It's not my picture, I snagged it via Google)

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

My favorite is 3 pieces; shaft, scarfed headstock, and single heel block. Minimize waste, stronger headstock grain than one-piece, and without the somewhat ugly lines of a stacked heel. But for a Spanish foot, stacked heel makes more sense so you can put one long slice at the bottom rather than cutting out a big chunk from a longer heel block to leave the foot.

Speaking of which, I've been wondering, what is the point of the foot? Obviously it provides more glue surface to the back, but if that was necessary, then why don't more steel string builders use them? It also seems like it would make a more visible indentation as the box warps slightly. Or does it help keep the box from warping? Doesn't seem like it would...

The Spanish Foot is the strength of the system. It provides a large glue surface to the back, as well as, in most guitars, butting against the reinforcement strip, which keeps it from slipping. This preserves the neck angle, and keeps the neck from folding into the guitar. Might be a good thing, but may not be as prudent for steel strings which, over the years, will most likely need a neck reset, which is most often not the case for a classical guitar that is built right. As you can tell, resetting a Spanish foot system is a bit more invasive than resetting a bolt on or most any other neck joint.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

You can build the 'inside' part of the 'Spanish foot' and mate it with a dovetail (Fleta?) or bolt-on neck if you want. (You'd want to make the foot and under-fingerboard pieces fairly thin if you planned to get two bolts in there as well...) I don't know why it isn't more common, especially since SS guitars have the 'rotation and reset' problem. Personally I like the CF 'struts' idea that Howard Klepper and Rick Turner and others use to stabilize the neck block, as it separates the structural demands from the top and back, which can then be more free to do their 'acoustical thang'...

The idea about the back reinforcement strip butting against the foot is more for alignment during back gluing than anything else, I think. (The David Schramm Hauser CD goes into this in some detail.) It's pretty unlikely that the joint between the foot and back would slip after it was glued up. And, of course, the neck is moving in the other direction ('lengthening' the back, compressing the top) when it is trying to 'fold into' the guitar.


Along the same line, it's interesting how little 'reinforcement' is added to the top, under the fingerboard, in many classical guitars. It shows the difference it makes when you have half the string tension (compared to SS), I guess.
Cheers
John

Depends. I think it is usual to put more patching in there since we all fear the FB cracks. The upper most transverse could be a lot more solid, and in between it and the UTB many put a thick crossgrain patch. The photo is not very representative for the foot either.

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Build log

You are right Alex. My foot is always wider than the outside heel.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

In Yamaha's case the slipper heel is not part of the neck, but is an integral part of the head block. They also use a support block beneath the fingerboard extension which is also jointed to the head block. The head block is in turn connected to the neck via a dovetailed joint and provides a very stable transition between neck and soundbox that is fully adjustable if a neck re-set were to prove necessary and - arguably - more capable of resisting the additional torsional forces applied by steel string tension than a basic rectangular head block.

Designed for good manufacturing techniques, but with a high level of strength to assure no warranty re-calls. While Yamaha's are good manufactured guitars, and may have more hand assembly than some, they are not luthier built.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

FYI = The FG1500 was a handbuilt guitar.

Thanks to all comments and info I learned a lot. As always

I suppose I should have said most Yamahas. I also have an Aria MH80, which was a hand built model, though it too is the exception in the Aria marketplace.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I have often thought about using a Spanish style head block glued in with the normal style SS construction method (sides not let into the block) and a M/T style neck attachment. The advantage is some of the rotational force of the string pull would be shouldered by the block and this would hopefully help prevent (or at least slow down) future neck resets. The disadvantage is that you are adding an noticeable amount of weight to the body.

I just haven't got around to trying it.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

And Colin S too, if I'm not mistaken (though with a mortise for the supporting block under the fingerboard extension). I've built a few this way, but they haven't been around long enough to draw any conclusions. It sure is a simple and reversible way to build.

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Evan McCartney

It seems like there is absolutely NO downside to this with the exception of the extra weight, and even that is manageable.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Yes I've used a 'Spanish heel' type of extension together with a fingerboard support that a neck extension is morticed into for about 30 guitars now and never had a hint of anything trying to move.

I think that a large number of builders ignore the importance of the neck block, it is a key component of the instrument, all of the major components attach to it, and just using a block of wood seems to be underthinking it. I use three piece 'C' blocks so that the grain direction follows the main attached piece. This ones upside down, the thicker part glues to the top.







I use a butt joint with an extension of the neck morticed into the top of the block.







This makes a very solid set up, with the advantage that the neck can be removed with just the two bolts.

Brock, as I don't need to make the block thick enough for a traditional or dovetail tenon on the neck to be morticed into, this block is no heavier than a conventional one, the mass is just redistributed.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Methinks you'll find the guitars in question - present day L Series with slipper heel - tend to be luthier built and aren't as mass produced as you appear to assume. There again, the question wasn't whether or not they were built by luthiers, but more to do with the practicalities surrounding the C-block style of slipper heel.

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We've been using this manner of head block construction for well over 45years (Myself for the past 38years) and find it helps immensely in terms of neck joint stability. With our Mahogany C-profile head block layout, weight gain beyond a standard rectangular block design is negligible @ barely 1.5oz, including fingerboard extension support and slipper section.