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Somebody on ebay is selling a bundle of 10 Engleman tops for 50$ buy it now. I d ont need em right now thought somebody here might http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180541530643&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

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Always be a bit leary of ebay woods . Tere are good deals to be had , however , also be prepared to "be had"

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Looks like 5 sets per bundle, so $10 per set. They are 'A' grade so that is a going price. The picture looked decent but my 'A' grades usually won't make guitar tops without some adjustment and imagination. Larger processors though with process lower grade logs (wider growth rings, not as stiff, more runout, etc) so their 'A' grade could be clean looking but degraded because of structure...hard to say.

Shane

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Canada

That price is about right for "A" grade.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Just a few thoughts: Good guitar tops are relatively inexpensive compared to the price of some back and side sets. Considering the amount of work that goes into a guitar and that most of the tone is generated by the top why would any one not buy a very good grade top...?? I am not saying that these tops are no good but for me I would rather risk my money and time on a better product. Rant over.

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

True, but practically all the tops you see for sale are graded mostly on cosmetic qualities. Even 'runout', though cited as acoustically important by many builders, is a cosmetic issue ('two-tone' top look) as well.
'Inferior'-looking tops can sometimes test with good structural properties, and presumably result in good-sounding instruments.
I'm just getting started with testing wood in my 'stash' in a more organized way, so my 'database' is miniscule. That said, I've already seen a couple of instances of outstanding-looking tops that measure as run-of-the-mill when you look at stiffness/deflection (MOE) and resonance ('Q').
After having said all that, it certainly makes sense to use good-looking tops if you want to sell the instrument, or even if you want to have it get a lot of compliments.

Cheers
John

John : Maybe you misunderstood me. I meant good tops not just good looking tops. Certain dealers tend to put on the market better quality then their competitors. When you spend your money you want to have the best chance of coming up with winners. Time is too precious to waste building with substandard wood IMHO. Good luck.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Tom-
Sorry if I inadvertently put the wrong 'spin' on your comments. I didn't know what definition you were using for 'good top'. That's part of the problem; we each have our own set of criteria for evaluating wood, and they're not necessarily the same at all.

I haven't seen any suppliers that give detailed specs on their top woods (Density/S.G., Stiffness (aka Young's Modulus/MOE), 'Q' ,etc. That's what I'd like to see..though no doubt I wouldn't be happy paying the extra $$ that such testing would add to the price!


Still, I'd pay a few extra (tens of) dollars for an average performance top that looked great - there's a big aesthetic 'thing' with guitars - why else do we spend lots of time on fancy rosettes, purfling, etc.?
Cheers
John

Thanks for the link.
I asked the seller a few questions about grading, vertical grain, etc. I'll be interested to see the response- if any.

I've had good luck with dealing directly with a few folks who also sell on eBay- if you have specific criteria, you can sometimes get a good deal from a 'wood cutter', if you are buying a number of tops.

I do like to see a lot of detail in ad listings on eBay - one pic and not much detail don't convince me to push the 'BuyIt!' button any more. You can learn a lot through (bad) experience!


Cheers
John

On eBay, good communication helps a lot in making deals trouble-free.
Good sign: The seller got back to me within 30 min with an answer:

"The Ring Count is a uniform minimum 12 rings per inch, and the grain is +/- 10 degrees of true vertical."

Cheers
John

Don't forget the shipping! Especially when it is half the price of the wood. This is $75 in your door – that's $15 per top.

I've never had a bad experience on ebay and used it a lot. But, I don't deal with people that have a number lower than 97 and never with people that have only had one or two transactions. That said I've never purchased wood on ebay.

I purchased a AAA SS set, a AA SS set and yet another AA RC set, plus bracing material for slightly more that that price – I'll pass.

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Michael
http://www.makingaguitar.blogspot.com

John Abercrombie is right on the money:

http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html

Mike

Sorry I misread it as 10 tops happens when I m tired.Its def not a great deal. That said , Ive had pretty good luck on Ebay, got some nice black walnut for my L00 build coming up for about 20$ turned out it was actually RC Tonewoods.

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Done so much with so little for so long
Can now do anything with nothing

Mike-
Thanks for that link on 'Runout'.
Excellent illustrations of what can be a tricky thing to put into words.
("How many directions can the grain run in one stick???")

Cheers
John

Hey guys,

I looked at the ebay listing, and realized that the guy is located within about an hour of Portland, Oregon. I sent him a message, and asked if I can personally visit, and look at his wood. So, I did. I did purchase some nice stuff. Here is my review. The wood is graded STRICTLY BASED ON AESTHETICS. I particularly went through WRC. Stiffness and quarter-sawn-ness were all over the map. The gentleman in charge, is a very nice, accommodating guy. However, he knows absolutely nothing about guitarmaking. He is more of a wood broker, and the clients they work with are larger guitar manufacturers/factories. He also does general lumber trade to furniture production houses, etc.

There is some very nice wood to be had, for sure. I actually liked many A tops over his AAA grade. They even had an "industrial grade" which they sold for $5 per top, and a few were absolutely top-notch. I personally would've put them in AAAA category. But again, to get to about 15 tops, I went through about 300.

I think the moral of the story for me is this:

Best option--go select the wood in person.

2nd best, have a knowledgeable dealer, who actually is nuanced and well versed in the selection process, capturing these criteria: Aesthetics, runout, cut (quater-sawn), stiffness, weigh and presence/absence of pitch pockets or other structural flaws.

3. take your chances, and hope the price is low enough that you get your money's worth of good stuff, and have some extra for bracing, or for your fireplace.

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Flamenco and Classical Guitars
Maker and Restorer

There is another "moral to the story" since in person viewing is rarely an option for most. Trust the longtime vendors who sponsor this site. Shane comes to mind. Sponsors have a vested interest in doing right by their OLF customers since we all converse among ourselves. Shane is top notch and totally a blessing to us all.

HEY PETER!! Welcome to the OLF!!

Ladies and Gents....This man can make a NICE guitar! and he is a great guy as well!

Sure hope you will step in from time to time Peter and impart some of your knowledge.

Shane

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Canada

I think Peter pretty much summed it up.

It's not always what the wood looks like. There are several vendors on eBay selling "tonewood" who don't know a thing about it. Lumber brokers and the sort.

That being said there are a few of us who are on eBay from time to time. I haven't been for ages because it seemed like it was swamped before and a waste of time but will probably be putting a little up to test the waters shortly.
I know Bob is on there, I've seen his ads. I'm sure there are more.

I refer any spruce inquiries I can't fill (which is pretty much all of them recently) to Shane and if you're buying Spruce he's the man. Don't be fooled by the cheapo sales and watch out for shipping and handling charges.

As far as WRC I'd really recommend a Canadian source. You don't have to buy from us (though I'd recommend it) but don't buy the cheap cedar coming out of the NW US. The last of the old growth WRC is almost exclusively in BC. Most of it is protected from logging unless it's salvage and it can't legally be exported prior to being manufactured.

And bad tops really do make amazing kindling

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My Personal eBay profile. BCWoodBug

I do think "Low Grade" tops are quite a bit of fun.... You can frequently buy 5 or 6 of them and then pick the best 1 or 2... and then use the rest for experiments or lighting the BBQ grill.... Say you pay $50.00 for 5 and then scrap 2 -- well... the 3 that are left cost you $16.67 a piece.... Still not a bad price when you consider how many vendors grade by Cosmetics only....

My Esteban Retop was a $7.00 #3 B grade top... It is a medium-wide grain Sitka top I got out of a batch of 5 tops. Doesn't show much silking and has a whole lot of stripes... 2 others are quite stiff and quite well quartersawn with a lot of stripes and color... 2 were so far off quarter that you can almost roll them up into a tube....

Unfortunately, the price point usually means that grade A and B tops are what's left over once all the "Good Ones" are picked out of the stack.... Those are the ones that have color and streaks and runout and aren't well quartered and squiggles in the grain and maybe a sap pocket in the soundhole or outside the outline.... Etc...

Sometimes you get lucky and they are just wide grained and colorful -- and you otherwise get an excellent piece of Spruce... Other times you don't get lucky and you end up with a top with *WAY* too much runout and sap pockets all over the place or pin knots here and there..... It's just the luck of sifting through the dregs....

Thanks

John