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Gee thank you for noticing Nick, but umm....would you be so kind as to shed some light on what Buddhism has to do with the business of luthierie?


blessings

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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"Gee thank you for noticing Nick, but umm....would you be so kind as to shed some light on what Buddhism has to do with the business of luthierie?"



Nothing..............everything.

Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Just pointing out the contradiction to your Wise man Bodhisttva Gold Prospector Persona.

I really can't stand when BS gets broadcasted and is given the chance to replicate ad vitam.

Facts:
First, there is no consensus on how the Cremonese makers designed their instruments, no surviving documents shed light on this and much of what was going on in those shops. However what is known is that early Stradivari violins seem to have been patterned on Amati's. Presumably both Stradivari and Guarneri apprenticed with Nicolo Amati. Secondly there is too much variation between violins to generalise on a formula, without mentioning different periods and radically different shapes. Thirdly virtually all Strads are asymmetrical in one way or another.

I suspect luthiers, then as now, were eminently practical people who constantly modified their designs in search of elusive perfection. No magic numbers there, nor anywhere I'm afraid. I do not see the Golden ratio in Martin's shapes either, although probably someone could make it up.

Padma (still no real name?), you should expand your library beyond "The Da Vinci code" and Krishnamurti. Dan Brown, as well as the movie "The Red Violin", may be entertaining and perhaps enjoyable, but have no real footing in fact or history.

And what does it have to do with the OP in any case?

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Gee thanks dude
we already discussed that concept about paradox about 3 pages back

Now if you got me up on some sort of pedestal, please be so kind as to show me where the legs to it are so I can saw them off.

I've got every vice known to man, so if you wanna rag on ... go find someone else.


blessings

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Uhhmm................ no



Sorry bro, It's just too easy. I mean with you acting like an enlightened Gold Prospector.

Nick

Nihilism ... as the reducto ad absurdism of all philosophy?

Msikwatash ... everybody has their own recipe...?

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Uh, no, I wasn't thinking of nihilism, nor was I offering a reductio of anything.

But thanks, . . . I think.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[quote="Laurent Brondel"]I really can't stand when BS gets broadcasted and is given the chance to replicate ad vitam.

/quote]

So Laurent, as a good Christian missionary...forgive me.

I mean like I accord you your privileged to post as you wish...some form of reciprocation would be in nice, without attacking my being, don't you think.

I've been to your web site, as a luthier, you got a lot going for you, my building style ain't no threat to you. Your B.S./reality tunnel about lutheri is just as valid as mine or the next guys.

So what you raging on me for? Because my style is different that yours? Because I think differently than you? Whats the next step, have me tared and feathered, hauled out and shot?

Come on Laurent, lighten up.


blessings

Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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many people post of forums , some people just don't say anything. This tread is a waist of time at this point.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

John Hall wrote:
"This tread is a waist of time at this point."

It's going too fast, and relativistic effects are making it too narrow to step on?

Sorry: couldn't resist.

Even as somewhat interested in theology I have to say this thread is getting dull, and quite low as well. Henceforth from now on if I have to argue with someone I shall message them so that the rest of the OLF doesn't have to read my crap, that is if it's off-topic.

I apologize for my contribution to the degeneration of this thread. I thought the original topic had been more or less exhausted and saw an opportunity to talk a bit of philosophy, which I don't get to do very much these days. The lutherie business also is a subject that we do here pretty regularly. But there probably is more to say, and I regret seeing the thread derailed. So here's an attempt to go back to substance.

I reread (and read--turns out I messed some the good comments) and I am impressed with some of what has been said. Rick Davis's comment about the heyday of custom guitars being behind us seems apt. My business has dropped a lot in the past 2-1/2 years or so, and I only know of one luthier who wouldn't say that. I sometimes think that the "Golden Age" of lutherie (actually, it irks me to hear people name a golden age when they are living in it. I think it should remain the preserve of historians to decide which age was golden) was a phenomenon of baby boomers reaching their peak earning years, and while the Great Recession seems to have killed it, the progress of that demographic bubble probably would have done so too, although less dramatically.

Another good point is the number of people who keep getting into this as a hobby and selling cheap. This is a problem in any fine craft for those who are trying to do it professionally. But it's not just the undercutting of price. That would not be an issue if the public knew the difference in workmanship between the amateurs (ya, with some exceptions) and the good professionals. But mostly the public does not know. Besides all those who never knew that a guitar could be build without a factory, I regularly encounter people whose idea of what a handmade guitar must be is a homemade guitar, like some crudely built instruments they see at craft fairs. Instead of the broader availability of handmade guitars expanding people's awareness of the market, I'm afraid that too much of what it does is expand the misunderstanding that these are kind of rough, folky things that don't come up to factory standards.

Last, another thing about guitar making that is different from the usual economics of a business is that it is somewhat immune to a shakeout in bad times. According to the normal model, when there is oversupply, those who don't make it fold up shop and supply naturally adjusts to demand. But 90+% of guitar makers work in home shops and are not going to get rid of their tools and machines, or their woods (which can be replaced as needed anyway). So they are still there if anyone contacts them to place an order, and can just build another as if it was a going concern. This maintains the oversupply.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

These are good points Howard. I am fortunate in that I am not seeing any slow down . With the internet , information is more available than ever before and many upstart luthier businesses are popping up. I know a few people that manged to get less than 4 guitars out the door and hung a shingle.
The realities are that , it is not an easy business but no one knows where the next successful business will open. The internet also expands the marketplace. Still the advice is still sound , don't think you will be profitable right away. Be realistic and if you do go into business , treat it as a business. That mean reinvesting back in and learning to be disciplined to what you have to get done on any given day. If you ain't at the bench , you ain't makin money .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I find the above quote from Howard very interesting, mostly because I think the opposite so there's room for some exploration of thoughts. While I will never be dependent on making guitars to make a living, in order to make them of a quality sufficient to sell, I have committed myself to beyond what I would call a hobby. So I'm not sure what category that puts me in or if it makes me part of a problem for pro luthiers. My second to last guitar hung in the Ottawa Folklore Center along side other hand-crafted instruments (plus, of course, all the factory guitars they sell), some being offered at less money, some being offered at more. I priced it at what I, and the sales manager, thought it was worth. People were free to chose or reject it as they saw fit. Generally, I think quality shows and I think that the buying public is aware of the difference. If there are some dogs out there, it only makes the good ones look even better.

This is the first time I've heard someone suggest that people have a negative bias towards handmade (...must be homemade, like some crudely built....) guitars. I think most people have a positive bias towards handmade guitars (and any other stringed instrument). As an illustration, I know for a fact that some people will reject the idea of a CNC made neck, only for the fact that it was not handmade. Finally, if we are really being honest, luthiers depend, to some extent, on people believing that handmade guitars are better. Otherwise they would not be willing to pay the higher cost associated with a one man operation who cannot possibly be as efficient as a factory.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

Uhm, I am not so sure about this Howard. I think those professionals who are building to the high standards are not going to be losing out to amateurs and hobbyists who are 'new' to the 'art'. Firstly, the obvious is difference in quality and that is reflected in the price... the 'cheaper' range offered has an advantage to the high end pros to, as it makes the handmade instrument available to more players at perhaps an earlier stage in their development - meaning they may stick with seeking out the best of the pros later, when their budget and /or playing level justifies the investment, rather than maybe seeking out that higher factory range.

I would imagine, most newbies/amateurs/hobbyists - as I have seen on here - tend to go through two stages - the first when they complete their first and recognise its not actually a bad instrument sound wise in comparison to alot produced in factories... and then as they progress to numbers 2-10, realise they have a long long way to go, to reach the standards of the best. So whn family and friends tell me I buld a 'amazing' guitar, because they simply cant see how anyone could do that by hand... its taken witha pinch of salt, and I tend to go overboard with pointing out the faults! So 99% of amateurs lucky enough to build for cash will be realistic about the standards they offer for taht price an how it compares with what you can get from experienced pros/craftsman - That in itself is an investment in the customer, because the honesty will always pay off long term.

I see it the same way as the traditional violin makers of old, where apprentice instruments were (and are) sold at a fraction of the price of thsoe built by the masters, usually as 'student grade' - yet often they are far better than the price suggests. The Master does not see this as a threat...

I can understand that in times of austerity, pros may view the availablity of cheaper hand made instruments as potential competition... From a players prspective, however, I would disagree. If I am in the market for a $4000-$5000 handmadse instrument having looked at all the options, I wont settle for a $1000 from an amateur because times are harder... i will simply wait, until I can commission the $5000 from teh luthier of choice and i think that probably goes for most musicians.

The amateur hobbyist who may sell for materials + a little of the time, is merely selling to someone who otherwise may have bought a similar priced factory guitar (IMHO). So I dont think us hobbyists pose any threat, but hopefully help expand the market for Hand made instruments by providing access to them to more players. Of course if the instruments are bad or 'over sold' it can have a negative impact as weel, as players new to 'hand made' - as you have stated, see 'homemade' and go back to factory options...

With all due respect, I think there is room for all in this. I have fallen in love with one of Gerald Shephards lovely creations - it will be a serious investment, but I will wait and save, rather that buy a $1500 instrument - I can build one of those myself.

I also think that there is room for those makers whose approach prepresents the antithesis of the search for and mastering of the finest instruments possible - those who build for there own satisfaction and that of those who play them, perhaps with a more 'rustic' approach rather than the measuring of every detail, or indepth analyis of the physics. At the end of the day, this is about building something that makes music.. and if the music makes folk smile, then its job done, whether its the exceptional concert classical player using a $20,000 hand made piece of exceptional art, or the local folk group using 'rustic' builds. For me the great thing about art, life and naturally instrument making is the diversity of style and approach and opinion that enriches what I (try to) do. I can learn from ALL of them, add my own twist of lemon, and hopefully create things that some players will enjoy.

After reading all 6 pages of this, I wish I hadn't. Bored I guess.
As a mandolin builder (much smaller market), I was able to pull down a decent living for a number of years until the economy caught up with two unfunded wars, NAPTHA-KAFKA, and the elimination of the middle class by the banksters.
Now I'm retired, off the treadmill of self-employment, poor in everything but spirit. I can, for the first time in my life, build anything I want, don't give a rip what I sell, and have total freedom to explore what interests me. Would I do it again? Absolutely.
For those of you that are pondering life here on this thread, might I offer one of my favorite quotes from Mariel Hemingway...
"Why don't you start out thinking you don't exist and see where that gets you."
Guess I'll laminate some braces...

Frank, I'm pretty sure you misunderstood my comment. It was not about competition for sales or "threats".

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I too read the 6 pages - it's like being sucked into a hole, a whirlpool.....
Filippo - the quote above - pretty funny

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

Howard Klepper wrote:
"I'm afraid that too much of what it does is expand the misunderstanding that these are kind of rough, folky things that don't come up to factory standards."

'Up to factory standards...'. Sigh.

There are a lot of rough, folky things out there, but not everything that isn't at 'factory standards' of precision is good either, and I don't think it's proper for us as hand builders to be held to that standard in everything.

Factories are about what David Pye called 'workmanship of certainty'. The ideal is to make exactly the same thing over and over, with no variation. To do otherwise requires large inputs of time to correct things, and man hours are the most expensive input in a factory setting.

The problem is that we're working with materials that vary widely. No two tops will ever be exactly the same in stiffness or density, and this requires some variation in structure to achieve a consistent sound. You can't build dimensionally identical units and achive that. Thus we're involved in what Pye calls 'workmanship of risk' in dimensional terms, in order to achieve 'certainty' in tone. This makes it extremely difficult to hold to 'factory standards' of fit and finish, and still get the sort of tone and playability that good performers want. And, of course, it all gets that much more difficult when you talk about 'custom' work; a different shape or size, a 'wedge' body on a model you've never done that to, or whatever.

It's interesting to me that the violin world has something closer to a 'craft' standard. A few tool marks or a little assymetry are not seen as 'defects', but rathar as signs of 'the hand of the maker'. This is not the same thing as 'sloppy' work, and I think anybody who went to a VSA competition or the Triennial and called the instruments 'sloppy' would rapidly find themself on the defensive, possibly even physically so. Most violin makers, in fact, consider US to be the poor workmen: see Jim Ham's comments in the latest 'American Lutherie'.

I don't know how we allowed ourselves to be put into this box. But when guitar buyers evince considerable angst when they find that the bridge on their new handmade is 1/32" off center on the top, even though the instrument sounds and plays perfectly, we hand makers have a problem. That would be trouble on a Taylor, but it's not for us, and we need to find some way of letting the public know that it's not, and why it's not. As long as we fight on the factory's terms, we'll lose: we need to force them to fight on our terms.

OT, I know...

As always, well spoken Allan.

Well Duh Padma refuses to be boxed up, in or out. Nor will me play that game.

Is like what me tell them when the nit picken starts, "yup, me no machine. What you holding in yer hand is just like you, a one only. The warranty stops at the door and if you don't like it please, close the door behind you."

Fight on factory terms ...forget it, me cant be bothered.

"force them to fight on our terms" You mean like using a 10 lb sledge to pound in a loose fret?

I'd rather give them away to some one who truly appreciates than take the time to educate the masses asses just for a sale. But you guys can do as you wish. Hopefully some one gonna take up the cause.

And for those of you who say me gotta an attitude...don't like the way me say things, your right, so then don't be reading me posts. Simple eh!

non the less...
blessings
be
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Nope... Howard is dead on with that observation.... but it pertains more to "Amateur" instruments...

Speaking with Repair guys and even experienced players... Their 1st reaction to the term "Home Made Instrument" is usually disdain for an unplayable Piece of Junk... My own experience is that they are usually quite surprised to find that the Amateur's instrument plays right on the 3rd try -- much less the 1st try....

It's only when they know you are "OK" that you get the Flood Gate Unleashed.... The hour long show and tell session of dragging out instrument after instrument out of their pile of "Dregs" ---- "And Look at this one.. Of course it won't play right... The bridge is 1/4" off.... Or this one... The neck is set totally wrong... Or this one where he cut his own fretboard and didn't get the slots in the right places.. and Look Here, the Soundboard joint completely separated the whole way down.... Etc...

But.. I think Al makes a great point as well.... that Professional Builders haven't been careful in their response to Factory instruments.... It's a Hand Crafted Item.. It should be expected to show evidence of being made by hand.... Not "Sloppy Craftsmanship" or slipshod work... but evidence of hand work....

Thanks

John

Oy ve.
I feel trapped between "The lord of the rings" and "Deliverance" again…

Now to more interesting questions.
I tend to agree with your points Alan, however I'd argue with that:
Totally understood for the "workmanship of risk", this has been debated plenty, and we all know factories build 100% "on spec" without regard for natural variations between sets. The lowest common denominator sets the dimensions.
However I do not think "workmanship of risk" vs. "workmanship of certainty" has anything to do with the quality of workmanship!
The two are entirely distinct, at least for woodworking.
I can name at least a dozen builders who fully practice the "workmanship of risk" and exhibit a fit and finish level vastly superior to factory guitars. If you have walked the aisles at the last Montreal shows you couldn't have failed to notice. The contemporary level of workmanship is indeed quite high, and that's for the better IMHO. The comparison with violin builders is mostly apt, but the trend there is to infinitely replicate what has been set as the standard 3 centuries ago. So much so that for a violin builder it is extremely difficult to sell a violin looking new: it has to be antiqued and look 300 years old.

John: I think you need to check out what high end builders are putting out, seriously. In that respect, there are more traces of "being handmade" (imperfections) in the great majority of high end factory guitars than in the current offerings from contemporary builders.

IMHO if we compete with factories, it is not there. It is the opposite: factories like Martin or Taylor (others perhaps?) putting out "real" custom models at premium prices. They're not stupid, they've seen the enthusiasm and the market for custom-built guitars. And for Martin and Gibson, better copies and interpretations of their pre-war models than they ever could put out.

Fillippo, you're right: I don't shape braces anymore. What's the point? I deliver my guitars with a little thumb-plane and a 1/8 sheet of 120grit in the case pocket and let the customer shape the braces to their final dimensions. Can't be more custom than that…

EDIT: Todd, I see we posted at the same time and we seem to agree.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Sheesh, Alan. You took that sentence out of its context and pretty totally misinterpreted it. And I've read Pye more than once.

I used to think my English was pretty good.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

A thought came while I was driving.

Does the custom acoustic market behave like other boutique guitar markets? When guys start getting into boutique overdrives or delays, they tend to start low and progressively buy and sell to get to higher end gear. From a Line 6 delay to a Diamond Memory Lane. Or they might get a Fender Custom Shop, play it for a while, then get the itch for one of the Custom Shop's Master Built's. Would a boutique steel string guy start with one of mine for cost and eventually want Dovetail Madness of his own?