Official Luthiers Forum!

I think in the current economic times resale value is huge. People know they can almost always unload a high end or vintage Martin for a good price and are less inclined to take the risk of buying a luthier built instrument from a name that does not guarantee a good re-sale value. I totally agree with Laurent that the target group for what most of us do is the largely the collector crowd. It seems the buying and selling of high end guitars is a big part of the fun for them.
The store where I sell does a large mail order business all over the world and their sales of luthier built instruments has really dropped off but they are selling a lot of several custom Martin models being built for them. One person told me that one of my guitars was his favorite in the store and if it had been a Martin he would have bought it! It's a big old goofy world.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

If I were to quibble with one line from Laurent's earlier post it would be this one as I soon hope to be "one of those retired guys". Fairness or unfairness or "trying to get a piece of the cake" has nothing to do with it. It's that you have chosen to make a living doing what many find so gratifying that they are happy to do it for very little or even for free. It's just the way it is and I can think of several examples in other professions. For example, many bush pilots here in Canada make little because the market takes advantage of the fact that there are people out there that love to fly and are willing get paid just enough to cover the cost of the plane. I might also turn it around and say that I've paid many years of dues to put myself in a position to be able to pursue luthiery without having to rely on it to put food on the table. I've never thought how unfair life is that others have been able to spend their lives building guitars while I have been stuck behind a desk. We all make our choices.....

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

I totally agree and took some umbrage with that line in Laurent's post as well. When I was offered a job to fly commuter planes for Northwest Airlink they were paying co-pilots $1100 a month. At that time, guys like me were willing to cough up $20K for all their flight ratings, and pay an additional $10K for training at Flight Safety....a pilot pool from which a lot of commuter airline would hire.

Pay $30k for a job that paid $1100 a month to start.....because we love to fly....and because there was a chance at making very good money much later in out careers. That was our choice.

The world doesn't owe us anything. We aren't entitled to considerations from strangers....or much less, from a passive planet. If we don't like our situation, we have the freedom to change it....to CHOOSE our path. I don't understand the failure to embrace this idea. With that in mind, we should attempt to do everything we do to the best of our ability. If we are good enough at doing something, people will notice and we'll get paid....maybe. If we fail at some endeavour, we'll at least learn something valuable about ourselves that might help us find a more suitable occupation.

But make no mistake, life is a numbers game. There are no guarantees but with effort, one can optimize one's odds of success. Go do your best....and don't make excuses. I expect to make guitars at a high level and plan (not hope) to get paid for it. But I could be wrong about that so I won't be too sad if I come to realize this and have to do something else.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Pat and Stuart, perhaps you should have read (and quoted) the whole paragraph and not hastily assume the opposite of what I meant:
It pays to read slowly. Personally, I do not care what you guys do with your retirement. I really don't.

Filippo, you wrongly assume that the more builders enter the race, the more players will be exposed. Nothing is further from the truth. A lot of high end dealers are currently shedding most luthier's guitars because they don't sell. It's exactly what Terence stated: luthier built guitars, with some exceptions, do not hold their value as well as brand names like Martin or Gibson. Or at the very least, it's an unknown. To make more of a point: I have yet to sell a guitar in Maine, my state.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

One thing I would like to point out is that doing repair can be a very good source of income. Also the guitar crowd is very different from ,say, the strings crowd (or at least they are around here). I do strings repair for a local school district and they always pay promptly and pay fairly. I can not say that about guitarists around here. Most of the time if you do repair on an orchestral instrument it usually goes something like this....."I dropped my cello and now the neck is out. How much is that going to be?" "Well it will need a false button and that will run about $200" "OK. Call me when it's done". The same scenario with a guitar would be "How much will it be to get this playable?" "It needs a neck reset and that'll run about $200." "I only paid $450 for the guitar!" "The cost of the repair is the same no matter how much the guitar cost." "Can you just lower the saddle?" "No." " Can I trade you some oak logs that I just cut for it?" "No." "Well when would I get it back?" "In about a week." "A WEEK! I need it tomorrow!" "I don't think I can help you." So what I'm getting at is that if you want to make money doing lutherie you will have to do repairs and build when you can. If you just want to build and not do repair I think that would be incredibly tough.
Jason

Not sure how you reconcile these two statements when you feel strongly enough about certain competitors to characterize the situation as "unfair". When you add. "but who said life is fair?"....we are still left with you feeling like you got the short end of some stick. I read your post thoroghly, Laurent.

I'm not starting a fight. I'm simply interested in how attitudes develop. I come from a perspective of wishing to be totally free yet it is often the varying definitions of morality that leads to subjugation...to oppression. "Fairness" as a concept is interjected into nearly every human relationship and interaction to make judgements or to create an imperative to change things...often to benefit of specific people or groups. I believe you summoned a judgement in your post....and I always find it fascinating that "fairness" has such a wide range of definitions.

I want to fly without wings and I can't. How fair is that?

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Stuart, you're not getting it. It's called "irony", and I misled you for lack of obviousness, perhaps clarity. After the sentence you quoted:I wrote:You truncated my statement, giving it the opposite meaning.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

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Regarding lutheric tuning of
illusions and delusions,
fairness, judgments and morality,
presumptuous transcendencies,
the economy,
the short and dirty end of the stick
and which ones "be witch."


Prajñā Pāramitā *

Miserably happy
in a paradox divine
Illusions of a reality
that does not exist
in all of empty space and time
All be but an illusion,
a delusion
within the mind.

.............from "Journey to the Light" by the Padma


Never the less ... we still make sawdust.


peace and carrots
be
Padma


* Prajñā Pāramitā ~ a Sanskrit word (प्रज्ञापारमिता), conventionally translated into English as "the Perfection of Wisdom"

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Sort of... just buy the best and prettiest wood - all of it out there and sit and look at it - maybe post the odd picture on here to ensure maximum envy especially from those that hate us retired lottery winning pretend builders

... now its not fair I dont win the lottery...

... on a more serious business note... the more folk enter the market, the more you have to up your game, be better, better quality, better service, and better instruments. It pushes the boundaries - its no surprise that in this current 'second golden age' the big companies have upped their quality of late to counter the 'threat' of a more diverse and higher quality single luthier build instrument.

No, the question does not still stand. Your response is question-begging. It contains the very premise--that there is a homunculus in one's head--that is in dispute. I have attacked that premise with good reason: it is logically incoherent since it leads to a vicious regress. To which I might add that it is physiologically incoherent, too. If you want to still ask that question who the little fellow in our heads might be, the appropriate response is to first defend the premise that each of us has a little guy in our head doing our thinking; offer a refutation of my argument, or some good reason for thinking the homunculus conjecture is true.

I'm surprised at you for taking this position, frankly. It's incompatible with anything Shakyamuni would have said, too. [But I'm sure he did have a very low cost lifestyle]

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

All are good points. This subject has come up many times and I believe there are numerous steps to complete for you to make this a financially satisfying occupation.
1. Make sure this is what you really want to do. There is a first time love affair when completing your first guitar. Watch out for this. Before too long your outlay in costs and little to no income can overtake your capability to continue.
2. Get into repair. Fix some trashed guitars for the experience. Repairing in your comfort level can lead to a little extra income and stay in the luthier business.
3. You might consider offering retail luthier products (on line store), specialty products etc. This will also take time, but can also give you a luthier related addition with income.
4. Don't quit your job.....unless you hit the lottery. It takes up front money to do all these things.
5. The worst case scenario is that you gain a ton of experience and simply become a happy hobbyist.

I've been a master woodcarver for 30+ years and have learned to keep diversified in all carving skills to adapt to any style/medium that is requested of me. I accidentally fell into luthiery 2 years ago as a 30 year decorative carver of instruments and a ONE TIME serious classical player. Just another of my desires to create things of beauty from wood. It's been a fun ride Luthering and have a display case full of guitars with more in the works and NO REAL expectations for selling...but not adverse to the idea. Even though I haven't sold any guitars, I have had several guitar decorative carving projects from the Guitar Luthier association.

Keep focused on quality and be patient. Life will reward you for your efforts.

Kent Bailey

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Wood Creations by Kent A. Bailey
EXCELLENCE IN SCULPTURE, CARVING, LUTHIER, ARCHITECTURAL MILLWORK AND DESIGN

http://www.kabart.com

Laurent,

I did not miss your phrase "but who said life is fair" in my first read. I guess the irony was too subtle for me because I also still took the two sentences together to mean that you considered the situation described as unfair. Since you are telling me they mean the opposite, I'll take you at your word and am guessing you mean to say: "...but in fact it is fair since life is not fair". That's the best interpretation I can come up with to make the meaning of two phrases result (sort of) in the idea that you feel it is fair.

Fairness and subtleties of the English language aside, the question that remains more interesting to me is, should someone that doesn't really need the money sell their guitars relatively cheaply just because they can? My answer to that is: "no", I will always try to get a resonable amount (i.e. what I think they are worth) of money for my guitars. But the reasons for this are more about maintaining self respect than trying to grab a piece of the cake.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

Ok Howard,

I accept that you ain't into answering me question, fair enough.

So me takes dis approch,

Regarding thoughts and feelings

Well they both seem to pass through me just like do other vibrational frequencies (X rays for instance) and can rattle my cage so to speak making me aware of them. As such what ever it is that feels them feelings and thinks them thoughts sees them as transient guests in my consciousness. Yes, me may feel sad or happy or observe this that and the other kinda thoughts, but I believe I am that which observes the thoughts. and emotions and not the thougts themselves or the feelings, the conscious observer. More simply put...the consciousness. You may believe otherwise as you wish.

However me do gotts one more question of you Howard....

And its got to do with Stuarts "pretentious transcendencies" and that is your inside knowledge of what the Enlightened wood have said. Now if perchance you do have an inside line to Buddha~hood, please pray tell were me can get my ticket into his minds eye, I mean like come on Howard...share the word, spread it around, us inquiring minds would like to know.

blessings

Peace and carrots
be
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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though a smart way not the only ...

Padama

Duh Tone Faiereie proclaimed( not a misspeel :a counsel debating the source magic of it all overseen by the muses) ; It is only the will of the tree to sing on before eventually reintegrating into that which provided/provides the energy that becomes those in a following of the continuity.

Somethymes they yank my chain though because I argue that I listen and try to interpet and it is the blending of our combined wills...

The paste and futre are but constructs by which the the thought celebrates....I IS...

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Gee KO

thats gotta be some really good stuff you into there,
ummm...can me try some of whatever it is
so me can go round and come back again just like
them trees...

but on second though, me better not,
me tired of comin back here again and again.

Next go round me wanna be a cosmic luthier
mastering in building divine mono~cords in the
Abell 1835 IR1916 system.

Ya thats it, a cosmic luthier to the gods. Right.

Perhaps you and me and we three should getts together one day and celebrate our Isness.


blessings

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Can I talk ya into bringing sauted morels and watercress on walnut bread...

Abell 1835 IR1916 is fine but id* think I think for this contimuation of our celebration I would rather be somewhere else we three have/share isness.

Honestly though I forget who's turn it is to pick...




id*(not a Freudian slip)you me we three...

Ya know dinning here among so many delectable morsels of shared though...I feel blessed....

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Ah, Paddie, it now becomes more clear. A mere semantic misunderstanding. I thought you were talking about individual self (the fictitious homunculus) as thinker of thoughts. Now you talking about conscious observer--not individual self. All cool.

Re inside line. Shakyamuni is name of historical person, of whom my knowledge is all outside. I am not a spokesman for Buddha, which is something else. I may or may not be a secret agent for Buddha, but that is a secret--even if I'm not. The saying is, those who know don't say, and vice versa. To which Todd Taggart wisely adds a corollary: If you have to ask, then you don't know.

Succotash, and missing parts of speech (it's late here)
your buddy with love

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Still somewhat inclined to say no observer.

Will forget you called me pretentious.

Succotash

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Jeez, perhaps some of you'se need to find a hobby!

My hobby is posting on the forums!

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Reading the last posts one could never guess what the OP was…
The Padma (any real name?) I have a feeling I am not the only one to find your posts phony and vacuous. I know that in real life you do not speak like you write here, and probably have interesting things to say. However, you and a few others are very good at ruining a perfectly good thread.
I apologize for being much coarser than Howard, but there you go. And no, I usually do not lack humour.
As of this post there are 1700+ views on this thread, I must assume a lot of people are seriously interested. I contributed my modest bit, but I am curious to read more of what other full time builders have to say.
Nothing better than getting it from the horse's mouth…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Well thank you Laurence for your kind tolerance of my being.

Regarding my phony vacuousness....I direct you to me very first post on this site were me was right up front, in your face, declaring the Padmas intentions for posting and sharing me lutheric babblings as a satirical writer/builder.

Regarding the Padmas personal life. You don't know diddly squat.

Regarding me name. Wanna see me birth certificate?

Me too likes to think we all contribute our modest bit. But then the Padma, him ain't modest.

Me build full time. But then only when me feel like it.

Now Laurence, me built me first instrument in grade 10, have pounded in well over 3000 frets, and me build threads have way above average hits on three different luthiers forums. How are yours doing?

Me build things that most builders couldn't even conceive of let alone dream about, not copies of some dead luthiers resolved nightmare available on ebay for $199 in any colour you want, case included and you wonder why you can't make a living in this gig.

As satirical humorist, me is so sorry to hear about your lack of humour. Non the less I do accept you apologies.

Now if you got any problem with any of this I, me, the Padma suggest you go take it up with the other end of that horse.

Oh and Laurence,
have a nice day.


as always,
blessings
and be
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Regarding the 108th post to this thread, which was me last post.

108 is a rather auspicious number...

In mathematics

One hundred [and] eight (or nine dozen) is an abundant number and a semiperfect number. It is a tetranacci number.

It is the hyperfactorial of 3 since it is of the form 1^1 \cdot 2^2 \cdot 3^3.

108 is a number that is divisible by the value of its φ function, which is 36. 108 is also divisible by the total number of its divisors (12), hence it is a refactorable number.

In Euclidean space, the interior angles of a regular pentagon measure 108 degrees each.

There are 108 free polyominoes of order 7.

In base 10, it is a Harshad number and a self number.

108 is the sum of 9 adjacent numbers: 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12 + 13 + 14 + 15 + 16 = 108

The number 108 is considered sacred in many Eastern religions and traditions, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and appers in just about every other 'isum ' asum' and 'spasum on this planet.

The equation results in the Golden ratio


Now in regards to Luthierisem

The Golden Ratio may be of some interest to all you dudes who really wanna make it as luthiers. Why?... Well all of the Cremona School of luthiers (Amati family) used them maths to design a build their instruments with. As did Stradivarius, C.F. Martin, Friedrich Gretsch, Orville Gibson, René Lacôte and Lloyd Loar just to name a few.

Virtually every master builder on this planet have these maths incorporated into their instrument, whether it be intuitively or intentionally. Every instrument design that has stood the test of time is based on the Golden Section.

You dudes wanna make successful instruments, be a successful luthier...grock the maths and stop making copies of copies of other dead master luthiers resolved nightmares. Although I do hear that a good copy can bring in a fair (what ever that is) $.


blessings
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Wow! How unbuddhist of you

Nick

Ya Howard,

Me admit that it ain't no easy task trying to be present as the conscious observer when the dodo is flying off the fan, which seems to be happening all over this planet right now.


Re: me, the Padma, pointing a finger at Howard, spewing forth the label pretentious. Never my dear friend. A feeble side ways implication, most definably, but you have forgotten about all that but me do apologize for bringing it to your attention, and hope you catch the double entendre.


Blessings Howard
be
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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