Official Luthiers Forum!

This is an extremely difficult business -- mostly because you are guaranteed to be poor until you put in your dues. So many other businesses have the prospect of several years of struggle but then very good financial rewards. Very few luthiers become success stories. And here's the thing -- you have to be very good to make it to the top. I see tons of guitars displayed on this forum that simply don't have the aesthetic appeal to allow their makers to break into that elite level. Remember, you will know be competing against young builders like Matsuda, Goedde, etc... who are artistically excellent.

And here is the kicker (for strictly building and not repairs), you have to get your base prices up well past $5,000 to really earn much of a living. Below that baseline and you will struggle a great deal.

Here are a few things I would like to share. I think I have very sophisticated taste but my early building years produced a lot of ugly instruments -- it has taken me years and years of constant refinement and development of both my artistic and luthier (tone, build quality) related skills to reach the level I am now. I would say the past 4 years have almost been solid experimentation with design. Now I am able to visualize things much better and know whether it will look good or not. There are some folks who are just naturally gifted at that and I certainly wasn't. So the biggest advice I could give is be willing to let go of your ego and "pursue" critique. Lot of people ask for it but what they are really seeking is just encouragement-- and so it is only a rare few who get my bluntly honest opinions and only when I am certain they can handle it. But if you have an "open to critique" mindset, I guarantee you that your chances of succeeding are much higher. I have learned more from folks who didn't like my instrument than from those that did.

The last bit of advice is have a backup plan. I am building full-time now but will likely be going back to get my master's in education and will do the guitar building on the side. I can then retire and do building full-time at some point later down the road.

So what would you do if you indeed win the lottery? Keep building guitars until the money runs out!

Well gee if Duh Padma won the lottery,
me wood...
Stop building,
get rid of this wood shop in me house,
build a really big shop,
hire a bunch of up and coming young luthiers
and teach them how to build my design ideas my way.

That way me could get all of me designs into real forum, and
me could lay back with a beer contemplating much more important sublime secrets like "just how far down does the rabbit hole go" and ....
and me wouldn't have to deal with the sawdust no more.

Hows that sound.

I'd also hire a dozen geisha girls to tend to the house hold needs while I surf the web.

Ya thats what Duh Padma would do.

blessings
be
padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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John one thing I saw a very busy full time luthier do is severly limit his hours of being open to walk in business. he is only "open" for walk ins a few hours ,three times during the week and saturday mornings. the rest of the time he is "closed" he is in the shop working , but does not answer the door or phone. albeit he is not running a supply business, where much time is spent ( as the nature of it) comunicating . jody

I used to think about making guitars for a living.

Then one night I went out for a sushi dinner.

After the sushi dinner, we went out for ice cream. I had mint 'n chip. Mmmmmmm.

I like sushi dinner. And I like mint 'n chip ice cream.

But I don't think they would taste good mixed together. That doesn't sound like a recipe for "having it all." It's a recipe for ruining two perfectly good things by blending them together.

I make a pretty good living at my day job.

I have a lot of fun making guitars as a hobby.

If I tried to make guitars for my day job, I would not make a good living. And with all the pressure and stress, I would not have as much fun making guitars.

Sometimes, keeping things separate is the only way to have it all.

I think I'll go have some ice cream.

Here's what it looks like jumping in during mid life. I am a 40 ish luthier who left the corporate world in disgust a number of years ago. I have built 4 guitars and most of 10 others. I am apprenticing with an experienced builder, and the more I learn the more I realize how ignorant I am. We are gaining a reputation, and have known national endorsees lining up. We are just now getting our throughput to a level where we have a prayer of keeping up with preliminary demand and might not have to get real jobs. The experienced luthier lives in his shop, and I did till I got married.

We'll consider ourselves "rich" when we can afford socks, and not have to subsist on ramen noodles and bologna.

I'm having the time of my life and wouldn't change a thing, but as a full time business this is not for the faint of heart. Unexpected complications arise that will cost you money no matter how well you plan, just like in an industrial environment. The difference is you really pay the price for a lack of foresight. The gentleman who quoted Beethoven was right. I'm doing this because I HAVE to, I really have no choice. Maybe that is a good litmus test....

Tim,
After reading your post and then seeing this statement I was taken back. The constant change from the economy, crazy customers, you health, and so on that you mentioned all reeked of "no control" to me, not "being in control". Please don't take this comment as picking on your post in anyway. I do not intend that in the least. As someone who has tried to "control" things my whole life, it took a real eye-opening look at things in my life to realize how little control I have over most things. It took me years to see this and figure out what I had the opportunity to really control.

Ed

Hi Simon,

What an interesting set of B.S.* you got going for you there.

You know they say, "argue for your limits and sure enough they are yours"

No offense Simon, but I must confess to living in a different reality tunnel with different set of B.S.* regarding luthier. But then I didn't buy into the "American Dream" of apply pie, work hard and you might die successful. OH well, each to their own eh.





Ah yes Control...one day we wake up to the realization that the only thing we have control over is what we chose to put into our body, and our thoughts...but wait a minute, did you really take the time to read the label before scoffing it up? And then there be the thoughts, you know all them primates running around inside yer head playing monkey mind with your brain and the thoughts running around inside it. Oh we two leggeds are a real case, we think we think and we think we choose.

We think we are the thoughts and
we think we are the feelings.

But I ask...who or what is it that is thinking them thoughts and feeling them feelings Hmmm?

Just a rhetorical question to umm "think about" while sanding down and instrument. DOn't confuse the "who you are" with "what you do"...they are two different things.

Yup we two leggeds are a real piece of that apple pie we are. No big deal, just another oh well.

Blessings

Padma


* B.S. ~ belief systems

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Some of us don't mind life being hard after all. It all depends on your preferred comfort level. For those who are fine being "poor" we're happy because we are satisfied with what we have and love what we do. Live in a bungalow, grow you some food to live on, live.

Ah yes the divine paradox again...lets see

rich ~ poor
high ~ low
hot ~ cold
heaven ~ hell
an never ending illusion of opposites.

I invite you to chose your favorite and draw the line were one ends and the other takes over.


Reminds me of the story of the little bird that wouldn't fly south.
Well winter came on with a fury, sleet, freezing rain. The little bird
finally spread its wings and headed south only to have them freeze up and she crashed landed
in the farm yard. She knew it was all over. But just then one of the farm yard cows dropped a plop on her and the warm dung defrosted her wings. She was so happy she poked her head out and started to chirp. Well the farm yard cat caught that act and scoped the little bird out and had lunch.

Now there are three morals to this story.

Those that sh** on you are not necessarily your enemies.
And those that help you out of your sh** are not necessarily your friends,
And if your happy in your sh** ... keep your mouth shut.

and with that, me say

blessings
be
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I am REALLY enjoying this thread-Keep em comin".........

Hi Padma,
Interesting that you say "no offense" after you called my opinion Bull puckie -- regardless of what you think, saying "B.S." doesn't lessen the effect of that word.

Your comments are partly why I don't post here that often. I try to give a helpful answer and then receive rudeness for my effort. Certainly, it couldn't be all that difficult to state your opinion more along the lines of "I disagree Simon and here's why".

For the record, when you take a $5,000 base price with about 15 guitars per year -- the average builder would probably be making about $35k to 40k with that amount, depending on their raw material costs. If you factor in wife/kids/house/insurance and all the stuff that goes along with it -- that amount of money can still be difficult for many Americans to live on. And absolutely, there are ways to live cheaper and perhaps you have found that way. I certainly have. I did missionary work when I was younger and lived for several months in poverty stricken countries. Those experiences affected my outlook and I have become a big believer in the freedom found from owning very little. As they say, "the more you own the more it owns you." -- and I believe that. In fact, I would go so far as to say I am one of the least materialistic people you could ever meet.

But regardless, the OP is probably coming from a typical American perspective in terms of lifestyle and understanding of what a "decent wage" is. Therefore, I was trying to give advice that I thought would be the most helpful for him. Furthermore, this kind of discussion is entirely subjective anyway and the answers will differ radically based upon each individual's worldview.

I choose transcendent ~ pretentious
or enlightened ~ ignorant

...and despair to find no line.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Well Simon

My apologies for apparently upsetting you.

Sorry that you choose to read my words as rudness.
Sorry that you find it necessary to use the
languaging of "bull excrement" and for preceive my writings regarding B.S. (belief systems) as such.

Non the less I must accord you your privilege of self expressing your world overview which buy the way is just another Belief System, one that seems to wanna put your words in my mouth. (and no, buy is not misspelt)

The big idea here is that we all have our own world view, our own B.S.* which forms our reality. We also have our own way of speeking / writing. If you don't like your reality, you are free to change it.

However to suggest that I pen my words the way you do yours is a bit over the top don't you think.

Your reality of lutherie is apparently one of "its a hard go" earning a living at it.

You see Simon, I don't have that B.S.* or reality tunnel. Nor do I have a belief system of having to "earning a livinig" as I already am alive.





blessings

Padma


*B.S. ~ belief system

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Zlurgh,

come on dude,

least you could have waited a day or two before handing out the answer, and a witty one at that.

No line eh....Hmmm you mean there is no them or us? Oh my! But you better pass the ammunition anyways. Just in case.

blessings
be
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Hi Padma,
Clearly, I misunderstood your abbreviation. However, you have to understand - my interpretation of your post is extremely normalized. There are few people who would have taken it any other way as that abbreviation is strongly rooted in our culture. Certainly, you can understand how the "bs" comment would have been interpreted as rudeness. Therefore, I think you could wrap your mind around my response and understand that it was entirely appropriate coming from my previous understanding of your posting.

Now that I know you meant something entirely different, let's just consider it water under the bridge. I normally try to give folks the benefit of the doubt -- when I first read your post, I just didn't see any other way to interpret your comments.

Simon, that would assume that Padma is normal. Well it would be like one of his comparisons, and you can draw the line any way you like.

Padma _________________________________________ Normal

Please note the long line.

Padma is a BS of his own! Oh yeah, we all are!

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Well, I just wanted to follow all that with...


HUH???

_________________
Tim

No. I meant that all trancendency is presumed.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Well, the Padma, if we think we think, that's not thinking we are the thoughts--it's thinking we are who or what is thinking them. I'd suggest that it's fallacious to think that there has to be someone thinking the thoughts. It leads to a vicous regress of homunculi. The better view is that we are the thoughts and we are the feelings and we are what we do. Or we are nothing at all, take your pick. Or pick both, if you like {;->
-----------------------------------
On another point, the people who do this who don't have a day job, independent income, or well-employed and supportive spouse are all charging more than $5K. Simon was being conservative.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Not to bring up religion, but are you God?

Any thought of being in control of your own life is temporary at best and more accurately described as delusional. If you disagree, give it some time.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

No, if I was God, I would make a lot less mistakes.

By being in control, I mean I am in charge of the day to day decisions, not someone else. Employers gamble with their employees financial future and physical safety on a daily basis. I prefer to choose which risks I take.

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Tim

It is possible to start building with few tools and a small inventory. I did. 99% of my tools have been purchased used, and I built jigs and small things as I went along, I still do. I never bought a Lie Nielsen plane or chisel, although they're located in Maine and I'd like to support them. I am very careful when I buy tonewood, I buy the best stuff, at the best price. I don't care about what some guys call "zoot". Most of it is BS (trendy abbreviation here) filled eye candy useless for a guitar. I care about the best stuff I can build with and what the average customer will request, period. After 40 guitars I have yet to receive a request for Brazilian rosewood, or "The Tree" or whatever. It is true that overhead is usually understated: supplies and maintenance add up at the end of the year.
So, from the start, little overhead, small inventory, no money borrowed.
I also live in a rural environment in a "poor" state where real estate is much cheaper than most places in the US. Most people get bogged down because of too much debt and a sense of entitlement that doesn't jive with reality.
My wife has a steady job that provides health insurance coverage for both of us: that's a big deal here in the US, unless you want to depend on the horse whisperer for basic ailments. I'd rather not.
We have a big garden and I cut my firewood for the winter, every winter. We live very well, and while I wouldn't say we're homesteading, we have shaved a fair amount of expenses considered "normal" for the US. We also drive used, low MPG vehicles.
I would still live in NYC or Paris (France) I am not sure I would have considered building full-time. In fact I am sure I wouldn't have.
As an aside, I just spent 4 days replacing my roof with a team of seasoned carpenters in the 80/95º heat.
Lutherie is a piece of cake!
I'm not getting that whiny attitude about how hard it is, and how many hours need to be spent in the shop and so on… Try roofing for a steady job, or even carpentry. It's nice: after 8 hours of this in the day I'm about done with. I'll easily trade it for 14 hours in the shop.
So it's all possible. I work like a devil, for sure. We all do. Since I tend to not exaggerate, I will say that I spend an average 12 hours/day in the shop and take a day of rest every other week, on average. You can't do this job if you sleep only 4 hours/night. Not for a long time. It requires too much concentration. You can't do this job if you don't have a ton of stamina either. Setbacks are numerous, Murphy's law ever present.
It's unfair that trust-funders and retired guys who don't need the income are getting in the business and are selling at ridiculous prices to try and get a piece of the cake. But who said life is fair?
And BTW I built my 1st guitar when I was 40.
In the end it's all about craftsmanship and how serious and talented you are. Craftsmanship and seriousness can easily be achieved, it's only a matter of work and practice. Talent, on the other hand…
The business side of lutherie is almost ridiculous. If you're capable of keeping balanced books, you're on your way. Advertising is most probably useless: it's a word of mouth/grapevine type of activity. And it goes fast if you're good, even in this half-recession.
I hope I'm not getting philosophical…
In any case the supply will not create the demand. Personally I live in a reality-based world. So, the more builders get in this business, the more will eventually have to give up. The market is too small, and is shrinking a bit since a couple of years.
It doesn't mean one shouldn't try, the more the merrier.
My only piece of advice would be to attend at least one guitar show like Healsburg or Montreal and have a look at the work of the best builders. That should set the bar for tone, craftsmanship, creativity and aesthetics. Those are the people you want to measure up to if you intend to make a living at it. And this is also the level expected by most buyers.

EDIT: And Howard is on the money, if not generous in his assessment. Very few builders make as much as what is even considered lower middle-class income. I don't, but I'm fine with it.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Ok here goes...



Ok , water it is , get your rod and we go fishin together off that bridge. Deal?





thanks Waddy. Seems me better change tactics here as me think you starting to get it.




Well tim88 its Duh Padma not HUH.



Well gee Zlurgh...we gotta start some were I mean like just two posts after yours we got Steve presuming that timm88 might be God, like why else would he ask unless of course tim88n has actually transcended. You think? Naw.

Anyways...Transcendencey ~ ain't that sorta like as high as you go is as low as you gets kinda thing.

yup us two leggeds are a piece of cake alight.




Well ok Howard, lets work from homunculi~isum or "theory" the question still stands..just who or what is
"the little man inside the brain." that does the thinking?

Furthermore, sorry Howard, "ether ~ or take your pick", don't work for me...how about a third option...or a 4th or a 5th..Ya thats it. I plead the 5th to the nth. Now that might bring us closer to the options available to us.



Well Gee Howard

Duh Padma, me ain't gotts no day job.
or an independent income
or even an income for that matter. Is true! Me no lie! Me may lead you down the garden path, but me no lie.
Me use to have a well-endowed and employed supportive spouse but she split town with my neighbors camel.
And me instruments, well me mostly gives them away.
and maybe Simon is conservative, what ever a conservative is.

Yet me ate breakfast, had lunch and ain't worried about supper or were its comin from cuz me ain't hungry right now. The roof she don't leak and this months bill is paid.

People have often asked me how I survive, how I live, and alls I can say is very well thank you.

Blind faith is one heck of a nut to crack.

non the less

and finally


Good for you Laurent.

be
Padma


PS~All donations to "Support the Padma Fund" are appreciated.
Please, cash only, in an envelop C/o dis here web site.
NO checks, Plastic or Pay Pal. Thank you and has a nice day.

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I think some of you have been inhaling too much of your own lacquer!

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Tim