Official Luthiers Forum!

I live solely off the guitars I produce. I do sell my DVD's but that's like a couple hundred bucks a month at very best. Normally more like $50 a month, so not really worth factoring in.

My wife takes care of our 3 kids. I work 15 hours a day in the shop. Worked until 3am this morning, up at 7am to start again. I still barely make it by and I like to flatter myself and think I make a pretty nice guitar. When you work as much as I do, and as much as the other guys doing it full time do then make no mistake it's a job. Some days it feels like it and some days it doesn't. If I would have spent 15 years in college/profession I would probably make 7 times as much money as I do, have benefits, and work half as much. If you factored in how much I work, as compared to how much I make you could make more by working at 7-11. No exaggeration. What's crazy is I still love building these things.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I think the biggest obstacle about the whole thing is the brand obsession. Everyone wants a Martin or Gibson or whatever and do not realize the level of quality and originality out there available for similar cost.
Just my observation.

Ps- Although with things like the Montreal show, it certainly appears to be improving does it not?

Howard ... I cant say how it is in the US ... but here, if one says that the middle class median earns 52K, thats a gross number .. not net income.

I do agree though that one does underestimate the costs associated with doing business ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I did it all backwards I guess - worked in the R&D department of a local guitar factory for about 4 years full time (where I learned luthiery as well as CNC, some about finish, etc.) and then quit and decided to pursue making my own instruments in my home shop. My last project was helping to design a production line for acoustic guitars. I'd already built a couple acoustics and by that time I was pretty well hooked. Tooled up, jigged up, etc. and I now have a nice little guitar "factory" in my garage. It's all just side money though - I usually build for friends and I do custom stuff that would cost $$$$$ from most folks pretty much for free, just because I enjoy the challenge. It's a good constructive thing for me to do in order to make a few bucks, but still be home with my wife and son.

I do think it's possible to make enough to live on, but I think it would require significant investment in good quality tools & jigs. At the end of the day, it all comes down to $/hr....just like in any business..

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

John Mayes
I thought I was the only one that worked like that. If I work 12 hrs, that is only a half day. Then once out of the shop , it is email duty and phone calls. Like John I am in the shop early and out late but sure beats working for corporate America . I think in the end , the mom and pop shops will remain the backbone to the economy. Giants like GM . General electric , Tyco are all thieves . Amazing how these big companies can loose money every year and get the government to bail them out , yet when the unemployed need an extension , you would think it was a disgrace .
Lets send more of your work to China and see if they will pay your taxes , Oh I may be ranting . Sorry. but I had to let it out.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Yes .. running your own business lets you work half days .. you even get to choose which 12 hours a day you work !!!

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Ain't that the truth... I started before 8:00 this morning and I am still at it now getting ready to work on a very nice Taylor. It's nearly 8:00 PM here in my shop so I am going over 12 hours today. But we love it right.....

My suggestion is for you, the OP to define your goals in life first and then write a business plan for a Lutherie biz and overlay the two. I am sure too that OLFers would help you with some of the info that you may require such as how many guitars can you produce in X time frame and the associated costs of same. Something of key importance to your chances for success is what is your value proposition going to be?

More specifically what will YOUR unfair competitive advantage be? Will your guitars be different in some way than the usual suspects and how will that provide value to your target market. What is your target market and does your target market have disposable income these days. These are some of the questions, some of the higher level ones.

Additional questions that will need answers are do you understand and are you willing to learn what it takes to support your guitars. Can you repair a guitar and do most any of the more common repairs that a guitar will need in your life span as a Luthier.

Not to discourage, far from it I am such a darn cheerleader that I am well known for being sickeningly encouraging.... but you know don't you that you can't swing a cat around here without hitting a guitar builder and/or Luthier.... Many of our friends here are building and selling guitars or trying to because of the economy and perhaps a need to do something to produce income. As such there is a LOT of competition and some of it, the top tier, is very tough in that some of these folks make some of the best guitars available.

The issue of health care is important too not only for the sake of your health but when you consider that as a one person shop if you are down so too is your earning ability. Supplemental insurance that may pay you for lost productivity if income is important to you is worth considering but I suspect very expensive.

For many Luthiers repairs are the bread and butter and just like when in a recession used cars get fixed up more commonly so too do older guitars in that it costs less, usually, than a new ax.

At the end of the day though and regardless of all of the information that any of us would be happy to provide to you what will be required for you to be successful and what YOUR definition of success needs to be is going to be completely up to you.

Consider defining your requirements and then creating a business plan and see how it comes out. Remember too that your target market needs to be explored to see if your business model is viable.

But first don't quit your day job just yet and instead build some guitars - as many as you can while one-by-one knocking out the issues that you will need to get proficient if not expert at. And never, never forget either that besides the fact that in order to attract clients your guitars need to be very well built they also need to sing as sweetly as possible.

Lot to think about I know but in time much of this naturally gets addressed.

Welcome to the forum!

Hesh: Sure nice to see you back man.....!!!
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

[double post and no delete button]

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Tony, that may be so in the case of wages earned, so that earnings are not the same as take home pay after taxes, but I'm confident that in Canada the gross sales of a business would not be called the earnings of its owner when the costs of the goods sold, and other costs of doing business have not yet been deducted from those revenues. Accounting would not be so different in Canada that someone gets said to have high earnings when he actually is losing money. Perhaps you mean that the net profit of a business is the same as earnings?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Right.....

Here -- when they talk about median income, they generally talk about "Company" type jobs... Benefits aren't factored in and neither is the other half of your Medicare and Social Security taxes that the company pays off the top..... Income tax and the half of Social Security and Medicare taxes you do "See" are counted, though...

When you factor that stuff in -- the $52K turns into about 75K....

Then, how much Gross sales does the business have to do so that it can furnish you with that kind of a living.... Probably $100K/year....

One of our Engineer interns is from an Indian family that owns Convenience stores... He grew up in it and says he wants NOTHING to do with that life -- Tired of working all those 12-hr "Half days".... He wants a 9-5 engineer job with a big company....

Thanks

John

Well as far as making a living on this there are two options: Make more money doing what you do or spend less money on everything else. My overall lifestyle plan has been centered around self sufficiency, like growing my own food and modifying my surroundings to use less and less fuel and electricity. May not do too much but it's something to think about...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0273 ... ss_product

Try "Screw Work Lets Play"

Everything which has been said is very true but what matters is what makes you happy, the theory is if your happy at what your doing you will be successful

John

Thanks all. Sounds like it can be a tough business. But it also appears to be populated with good people, who know their stuff. This is just what I expect from an industry based on craftsmanship.

My only income is from guitar repair. I am sure if I ever started building I would be able to wipe out
my family financially. Repairs; if you are not factoring that into your plan of guitar building as a profession
you are missing something huge as far as financial security is concerned.
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

Hi

Not sure if it counts as advice, as I am new to this as well... but having that long term ambition is something good to have. I also work in the Pharma Industry although on the Clinical Research Organisation side, which is interesting and challenging, but once you get started with this build hobby, its impossible to get those dreams out your head... and dont get me started on the wood collecting - there are many highly experienced builder on here who turn to jelly and woudl ideally raid teh kids college fund when confronted with some delightful piece of tonewood... me included

It's the contrast the day job and actually attempting to craft something that makes it so appealing.

So step one for me is to keep building over the next 15 years or so and see what standards I can get to... if at that stage they are good enough to appeal to a reasonable customer base, then I might go for it... that said, if I get interest earlier, its not a bad way to earn a bit extra...

On another thread, someone was talking about teh value of building FOC for artists who might be up and comming etc, and there was a fair bit of debate around the value and expectation and importantly relative value of the exposure vs investment. For the Pros, its a serious decsion as they need to balance this against the REAL marketing potential versus loss of revenue, but for amateurs like me, its probably not a bad thing... when good enough, simple low bling, but good sounding guitars maybe sold at material cost to a few local musicians who have potential or already have a certain degree of exposure could well be a good long termer?

NOt sure what will happen in the next 15 years, but teh building should be fun(in between the frustration)

I own a small irrigation company (2 full time employees) here in Oklahoma. I have been self employed for 9 years now. Being a small business owner is one of the hardest jobs I have ever had.
You get there before anyone else, to get things ready for the day.
Then you do the actual work. 8-12 hours a day.
Then after everyone is off and gone home, you still have to stay and do the business end of things.
Very rarely is it less than 10 hours a day. Most are 12-14 hour days.
Then when I get home I'm still working, doing bids and designs.
Overhead and taxes are unreal.

Trying to squeak out a profit in today's economy and keep pricing competitive is a daily challenge. There is always a new tool to buy, broken machines and customers that are just CRAZY. And the BOSS can be a real pain. lol

As the economy changes, so will your customer base. Things that were a necessity yesterday are a luxury today. You have to change constantly. What was popular and cool last month is no longer wanted or is obsolete.

And if you have no personality and can't relate to people, you will probably fail, no matter how good you are.

The stress is unbelievable. 3 kids, food, house, cars, utilities, insurance, new clothes, doctors, dentists, football, t-ball and the list goes on and on and on... All these have to be paid every month. I figure everyday when I wake up, I owe $250.00, before my feet even hit the floor. That means I have to make $250.00 everyday before there is any extra to go eat or to the movies or buy wood. I owe it even when I am sick or just want a day off. I have had to cancel dinners, vacations, kids sporting events etc. because of work/customer conflicts. Yea, there is a little bit of stress.

However, I would take it any day over working for someone else again. The peace of mind that comes from being in control of your own life is unparalleled. Go for it but do it slowly, focused and with a plan in mind. Start out on weekends. When it gets to be too much for weekends and evenings, do it part time. When part time is not enough... STOP and ask yourself, Am I making a profit? Seriously, are you making a PROFIT, not just income ,but a PROFIT. If so, make the full time change. If not, sit down and figure out what you have to change to make a profit.

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Tim

Think about the phrase "Jobifying your passion" Does it sound like a good thing?

As a few here have mentioned -- it sure can be a KILLER.... All the things you hated about a "Real Job" are magnified....

Like pricing.. and getting customers to PAY the bill.... and QC...

You may think of the job as "Building Guitars"
Your customer may think of the job as "Building Guitars"...
Really, you are "Selling a Dream".... That sounds pretty nebulous, doesn't it....

But.. then your customers call you up or want to stop by EVERY DAY.... Wanting to pull up the plant every day to look at the roots.... Gosh, How come this scoundrel isn't making any progress... I better call him up again to check........

This doesn't even go into any mention of "Mastery" of tasks ... Research says it takes about 10,000 hours of "Hard practice" to "Master" something... At 2 hrs per day (Which is A LOT for an amateur) -- this is 5,000 days... or 14 years at Devoted Hobby levels.... Sure, the curve speeds up a whole bunch when you Go Pro... at 8 hrs/day it's about 3 years..... but still, something to think about...

Thanks

John

There are hundreds of dollars to be made in this business!

Michael Collins
www.collinsguitar.com

Yeah - no stinkin too big to fail in Lutherie.....

Wow, this thread is quite the reality check. Definitely making me rethink some of my plans. My big question is how many hours, on average, do you spend on making each guitar? How much time is spent on administrative things, etc. Thanks to all of you participating in this thread.

Andrew Nelson

"Wow, this thread is quite the reality check. Definitely making me rethink some of my plans. My big question is how many hours, on average, do you spend on making each guitar? How much time is spent on administrative things, etc. Thanks to all of you participating in this thread.

Andrew Nelson"

For me a guitar usually takes between 70-120 hours depending on how my methods of building change or remain the same. The type of guitar is also a factor. Customer emails can be in the order of 20-100 depending on how involved they want to be. This gets squeezed in between the full time job and my family. The guitars are in the 3k range. You really have to like building or it will turn into a monster which will sap all of your energy. I am trying to keep a delicate balance. It's all about balance.

Michael Collins
www.collinsguitar.com

The one part of the equation that I overlooked is the time strain. The better known you become , the more people you have to deal with , thus the more time you are non productive . I must spend 3 hours a day on the phone and emails . I can tell you that if you don't like to work long hours and often 7 days a week , don't become self employed.
Success cannot be measured in dollars . I do make a nice living , and I do love what I do. I am in control and I also have all the responsibility. I am now totally unemployable and I doubt that I could work for anyone ever again. I hate incompetence and corporate America thrives on it.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

They say success is measured by the amount of leisure time one may have.

Well by that measuring stick ... me be extremely successful ...especially after realizing I don't gotta own it to enjoy it and dropped out of the system.

Ya dudes, its all what you value and what you use for a measuring stick, weather you bought the systems program and live in the matrix or can go fishing an count the roses along the way.

Some are luthires some are business people...just follow your Bliss~tress and everything gonna work out fine.

But just do it.



blessings
be
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I quite agree with that: what's the best, being "poor" doing what you love, or rich hating every single moment of your life? Got to find the balance for sure, but how many luthiers have you met regretting the life they chose?

With the internet all that stuff nowaday, does anyone think the location where you live actually has a real impact for this kind of career? One of my part-time teachers has his workshop in the middle of NOWHERE, still he manages to sell quite a few guitars.

In anycase, lutherie needs no less than any other kind of business: Long hours of work, a product of quality, good contacts, an extra bit of luck, and a good planning.

To finish, I think is quite interresting to remind that Antonio de Torres -AKA- the most influent luthier in the history of the guitar- died in poverty.