Official Luthiers Forum!

hi guys/gals.

its been a LONG time since I posted on here...

last year I think it was that I shared my idea for a guitar that was actually 2 guitars, joined down the middle to form 1 guitar...
I recently got it back from a setup (my very poor build quality led to some playability issues)

wanted you to see that its back in action..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDeCiLWo1qM

[youtube]YDeCiLWo1qM[/youtube]

I am still waiting to get the 3rd prototype done, hopefully by a luthier, I have resolved many of the issues with this one,
and I have develop a way to transfer the vibration to the middle of each soundboard, which significantly improves bass response
amongst other things.

sorry again, that this is not a guitar demonstration video, I am driven to play it and record songs i'm "into" at the moment,
so I am posting on here merely as a way of keeping you up to date, this was not produced as a demonstration of the prototype, and
thus, doesn't do a great job of doing that.

hope everyone on this forum is doing well, I enjoyed our discussions on this last time around,
and find you to be a very interesting bunch.

Cheers,
Dale

I remember when you first introduced the idea...or atleast I read the threads. Very interesting!

thanks, yeah it definitely is interesting....

Hey Dale, thanks for the update.

Real nice vibe going with that song, wish I were as good at telling a story as you are.
I hope it works out for you with the guitar concept, everyone does enjoy innovation, but do you think it is stretching it a bit at this point to say that it has tone and sustain unlike current acoustic guitars?

Larson guitars, built around 1900 and into the late 30's early 40's (maybe even 50's) had a similar tone. Their guitars had a set of steel co-ordinator rods to carry tension and compression.

I like to think that my guitars have such tone as never heard before, but I'm not so brave as to actually say it, have to let my work speak for itself.

I hope you are truly on to something new.

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thanks david...

re: sustain and tone unlike current acoustic guitars, what i meant by that, althought im not certain if I worded it properly...
was that compared to a "traditional" acoustic guitar, which in my mind is a typical guitar like you would expect to find if you walked into
a mall, or music store... i.e. a run of the mill, but decent guitar....

and I don't actually claim that its a better thing, just different, and also, the sustain and tone on my guitar, I believe is indeed different
and unique. the sustain, be it a good or bad thing, is much longer and flatter than on any guitar I have tried, also, the sustain on the bass strings is not
mixed up with the sustain on the treble strings, and while thats hard to explain, or even picture or hear on the video, everyone who has played or heard
it does reflect the same comment, that the detail and sustain is totally unlike anything they have heard.

Im not making some claim to have found the next big thing, or even anything "superior",
simply that it is different, and in my very limited experience it does record "better" than "traditional" guitars...
(that doesnt mean it sounds better in a non-recording setup, or even that its a great strummer, in its current form)

anyway, its all good, i hope I have cleared up my feelings on it a bit..
i really just feel its something that shouuld be explored and developed just a bit at least, by luthiers,
as the fact that is most amazing, is that i built it, and it sounds good,
i can guarantee, im probably the least qualified guitar builder...

hi Filippo

your are totally correct, the video is not a good "demonstration" video.
I posted on this site, only because there were several members on this forum, that showed great interest in this guitar.
I had many great conversations with some of these folks, and I posted this, simply to let them see that it was being used again,
and was back to being playable.

regarding the fact it is shown being played while I was singing, i just happened to be recording a song, and thus thats what you see in the video..
however, I believe you are overlooking something, lots and lots of acoustic guitars are purchased and owned by people who intend to sing with them.
most recordings you hear on the radio and other places of acoustic guitars are in context with a singer and/or band. for you to instantly write off
a video, and say it doesnt even show how the guitar sounds, is missing out on hearing how the guitar sounds in a simple mix. voice/guitar.

I believe that is one of the strong points of this guitar, and I believe if you listen with an open mind, you may find, that you actually do hear much better note separation and individual sustain on notes, even with a voice in there muddling things up.

some things that dont sound awesome in one scenario may be perfect for another,
maybe, if you choose, you could listen to the video again, and think to yourself, how does this guitar sound with someone singing.

i dunno, i dont intend to be rude, or disrespectful, i just find it surprising people tend to miss that fact.

I'm sure someone who mixes, or does audio production may listen with a different ear, and pick up on how it fits in the mix,
who knows.

I didn't mean to offend anyone with the post, and if a few people seem to think it doesn't belong on the forum, I would be happy to remove it.

the reason I tittled it "revolutionary" guitar prototype, for this video, was so that the luthiers I spoke with a year or so ago would
recognize it as the same guitar, and if they were interested they would click on the link..

thanks for the comment on the singing... im slowly gaining some confidence in that area..

also thanks for the tip about acoustic guitar forum, I was not aware of that forum, perhaps I will see if they want to watch the video.

Cheers,
Dale

Dale,
Sorry if I sounded so critical. You aren't hurting anyone's feelings posting here, there is actually a little 'smilie' to describe what you are doing, calling your guitar "revolutionary" so don't take it too hard if we rise to the bait.
Anyway, you certainly know what to do with a guitar, and what you want out of it, so you should just shake off the naysayers (like me) and proceed with the plan.

Oh yes, when you get your million dollars selling the patent (or what ever) come back and wave it in our faces.

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I would like to hear more of the guitar in the mix though. I understand it was just a song you recorded and wanted to share. I do agree you have a nice voice though! Don't ever be shy about singing! Just make another vid asap that does demonstrate the guitar more!!!

Remember luthiers- this is actually 2 half guitars- joined at the middle. Pretty experimental if I do say so myself. Dale is sharing his idea and hard work and the thread is no different than any other post displaying our finished masterpiece. Bravo Dale.

...was that compared to a "traditional" acoustic guitar, which in my mind is a typical guitar like you would expect to find if you walked into
a mall, or music store... i.e. a run of the mill, but decent guitar....



Don't think you will find to many "run of the mill" mall guitars around here...

WOW!!

The man just wanted to post a video of his latest creation and hard work. What's with all the hostility.

His video , title and description wasn't to your liking so your giving him a load of crap???

I see this on a lot of other forums and so I choose not to post there, but have never seen it here.


????????????????????????????????????

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Tim

That was a great performance Dale. I really enjoyed it. The tonal qualities of the guitar are very well suited for what you played. Were there any effects on the guitar or was it just straight into the condenser with flat EQ? Keep us informed as things evolve. It's an interesting project.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

thanks tim88

I was a little surprised at some of the reaction, but I think seriously, some people are just more receptive than others
to ideas that seem "whacky", especially at first, although, I would say the responses, even those that seem to be busting my hump, are actually pretty well thought out, and basically respectful suggestions.

I knew people would say it wasnt a good guitar demo, which I made pretty clear up front was not the intention.

I am however really surprised at the lack of acceptance that a guitar is generally used as part of a performance,
usually with a voice, so i just cant see writing the video off completely...
i.e. if this was a demonstration of a new martin guitar, and Sheryl Crow was using it to perform one of her songs,
i would think that would be a pretty typical demonstration of a guitar in proper use..

anyway, thanks again for "stickin' up for me" I do appreciate it, but I also understand the points made by
the folks that wanted to see more of a "scientific" recording that would let them hear it the way they wanted to.

I am trying to find a talented finger picker to make just such a "demo" video, but a few have fallen through...
so I'm getting tired of trying to set that up... this video was made, as I mentioned as a creative thing, and I just was pretty happy with the result, so thought I would share with a forum I respected.

Cheers,
and thanks,
Dale

hey Haans,

I was not meaning to imply that any one on here builds "typical" guitars that might be found at the mall,
I was trying to illustrate what I mean by "traditional" guitars.. I am struggling to find words to say what i mean,
I just what i mean, is a standard type dreadnaught, like seems to be the generally accepted structure of a acoustic guitar
currently. I'm not talking about quality, craftmanship, tuning, etc etc,
if I should be more specific, the guitars I have compared it to, and the sound in general im talking about is,
a guild DV52, which you can see in my other videos for direct comparison used in same recording setup,
also takamine MIJ, have also compared it with many guitars of that general style.

i hope I did not offend you, if you felt i was saying you or luthiers in general build guitars like i can get at the mall,
that was not my intention. I realize your guitars collectively are miles ahead of "typical" guitars..

cheers,
Dale

hey Terry,

thanks!!
I think the tone does really suit that "eerie" feel of that song in particular..
I recorded the vocals and the guitar track at the same time, through the 1 mic,
so i set the EQ basically for my vocals, which had a fairly heavy bass cut, and the mids were slighly cut, treble slightly boosted.
(i do this because I find it brings a openness to my voice, without the bass cut, my voice tends to sound nasal and kinda muddy to me)

there was some FX on the 2nd "backup" vocal track that kicks in during parts of the song..

cheers,
Dale

hey AlexanderLou3,

thanks for making note of that, i really do feel it was pretty experimental,
and took and still does take a fair bit of something to put it out there,
i know that it wont be accepted too easily because it is different, but comments like yours make it easier,
so thanks!!!

cheers,
Dale

Well, sorry Dalester, I guess I was a little harsh first thing in the morning, but as you say, most of us here are striving to make unusually fine instruments.
Guess I needed more coffee...I'm pretty much at six in the morning.

no worries Haans, I can see how you would think i was trying to imply you all were making guitars like that in a mall,
it was my bad, i should have explained what I meant, better...

im also, not trying to lump all "traditional" guitars together into one big lump,
nor am I saying that "traditional" guitars are bad in any way, in fact, i love them, thats why i play guitar,
my little idea, and experiment is totally a shoot off of that love of guitars,
and when I say i like how its turning out, or that is has promise, it is nothing against traditional guitars.. just different.

also, part of my enthusiasm for this design, is that it actually plays and sounds pretty dang good, and I built it. and Im not
a luthier, so i am only imagining what the design would be like in the hands of a talented builder. I think
most would agree, that if the first experiment with a dreadnaught turned out that good, if built by someone who never built anything, it would for sure have been pretty amazing..

anyway, yeah, no worries, and i didnt find your reply offensive, i was just worried I had worded my message poorly,
and wanted to clear that up...

cheers,
Dale

hi Filippo,

I think if you did not assess a violin by listening to it in an orchestra, you would not be doing a very thorough assessment.
I feel quite certain that as instruments have evolved, to this point at least, the way they fit into a mix, or orchestra was very likely studied to great length, in fact, i feel quite certain, it was the direction of composers that called for new instruments or changes to the instrument to make them fit into the orchestra.

look at simple changes we know about, for instance, the jumbo guitar, was built to provide volume, to keep up to amplified vocals, sticking with the violin, do you really believe that the people responsible for the design of it, or the evolution of it ignored how it fit into an orchestra? seriously?

to me it is like trying to asses a carberater without putting it in a car? a violin is definitely part of a larger whole..
(usually, and certainly at its design it is)

I understand that you dont agree, that its important to evaluate how things fit into any particular mix,
what i dont understand is your thinking thats its pointless to evaluate it under those circumstances..

however, the last thing i want is a debate over something so silly,
and if you think its pointless, and that you can tell nothing of a guitar when listening to it while someone is singing,
there is very likely not much point in you and I discussing the matter.

have you listened to your guitars when someone uses them to perform?
does the performance ever involve singing?

as a luthier, do you honestly not listen to that performance and ponder how well its working?
do you ever think, that sounds good, but when he/she sings, i just cant pick up on the details of the mids?

just curious... cause if you dont listen to the guitar while someone is singing, and if the guitar is meant to be used
while someone is singing, i have no idea how you would critique the guitar.

You wouldn't have someone drive your car around the block, then have them get out and ask what they thought of the carburetor. I can take two carburetors and, without putting one in a car, tell you which is better. The car just adds noise to the measurements.

Guitars and violins are also much more easily judged in isolation. The only way it would help to have a voice or an orchestra in the mix is if you happen to have a scientifically calibrated and standardized orchestra and voice handy (preferably with traceable NIST certifications ).

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

so you are saying, an instrument that is typically used in combination with a human voice, should not be tested in conjunction with a human voice to see how they interact?

i find that very strange, but respect your viewpoints.

Sounds thin to me, but hard to tell with light strumming and the bass cut in the mix. How about a song with a prominent guitar solo?

I'd love to play it if you're near the DC area.

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Evan McCartney

sorry, not in the DC area, im in Canada,

yeah, the bass cut is definitely effecting the bass tone, when I can/ if I can, line up a finger stylist,
I will do a more appropriate "demonstration" video or sound clip...

Dale, so sorry if we are all coming off as a tough crowd, it isn't at all being mean though, but you words did come off in superlatives.

When someone is trying to sell a guitar, and the customer wants a clip to evaluate, you'd be crazy to send him a clip with singing over the guitar. That is all anyone is saying.

Now, as a performance it is just fine, and the concept you are working on is just fine too. And maybe we are a little envious that you, are developing something within musical instrument technology that is possibly patentable. Gibson seems to want to swallow up all the new inventions, yours may be the next big thing.

Since I don't remember all the details of the first thread, does the 'center wall' carry all the bridge load?

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Hi David,

thanks,
yeah, i did indeed say at the very beginning that this wasn't a good "demonstration" video, so I guess maybe we all agree on that.
LOL...

good point about gibson swallowing up all the patentable stuff,
i have tones of mixed feelings about where to take this next, but thats a whole other subject I really dont wanna kick around again right now...

the "center wall" or joint as it turns out to be, it does indeed carry some of the load,
however, since i first built this prototype, i came up with a way to transfer the string vibration to the "middle" of each top..
that helped to open up the guitar very much, especially on the bass side of things, as it was overly compressed as each bridge is very close to the "side" or middle wall...

I cant discuss that technique just yet, although I have discussed it with a luthier that may be building proto3.

thanks for your balance thoughts on the whole thing,
i really dont find this place offensive, and to be honest its such a civilized place compared to most forums,
its a pleasure to hang here for a bit to talk about this

cheers,
Dale

I wonder if a series of sound ports in your center beam would help transfer pressure in the sound box between each half without weakening the structure? I also wonder how that would sound with the double top construction.