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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:34 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Taiwan
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regarding the jointing, I started out with a router, then sandpaper taped to the bottom of a wooden plane body without the blade (mostly because that plane didn't stay sharp no matter what) and took me about 30 minutes tops to get the joint decent. I aim for a slight concave joint if I can't get it straight. Then I use the brown binding tape and hide glue method and get a perfect joint. No expensive LMI jigs needed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:47 am 
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Cocobolo
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Paul,
After building 7 or so guitars I now perscribe to the 24 hr rule...If things are going to pot and the veins in your forehead are starting to bulge out put the work down.
Nothing worse than trying to force something and getting more and more frustrated. Put it down, turn off the lights, take the kids or your spouse to the DQ and relax!

This is what I did Monday night after sanding through my varnish finish (Behlen's RH) and was contemplating sawing the box in two for a magazine holder! Built it back up Tuesday night and I am going to 600 wet sand tomorrow tonight...Varnish is cool!

Ray

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:08 am 
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This is why the wudwerkr ALWAYS has beer ,sipping brandy Eat Drink and tv in the woodshop , If the project takes a " dont wanna go right " turn Well , You can figure out the rest laughing6-hehe

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:45 am 
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Koa
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Thanks for the responses. I'm still in a pretty funky mood this morning.

I appreciate all the comments about using a plane - and I actually have one I purchased recently. Do you think this will work? It is an old Stanley No. 8.

Attachment:
P1000346.jpg

Attachment:
P1000349.jpg

Attachment:
P1000350.jpg


However - since I have NO experience using anything other than a finger plane - what can I do in the meantime to get joints done on two guitars?

Taking my boat to the lake later today - maybe that will help my attitude.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:46 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I can help you.

I have sanded LOTS of tops and backs in this manner (I use a surface plate rather than that tool, but the same principle applies).

Start by getting your edges close. A hand plane, jointer, or edge belt sander work well. It is best if the plates have gaps in the middle as opposed to touching in the middle with the gaps at the ends. Once you get the hang of it, it really doesn't matter, but early on touching at the ends is easier.

Hold both of your plates together when you sand them (don't do them one at a time). And when you sand put ALL of your downward pressure on the back edge closest to you. You don't have to push down crazy hard, but you want to make SURE that back corner stays down throughout the stroke. Put just enough pressure on the middle of the plate to keep it touching the sand paper (almost none). Push the plates forward slowly. DO NOT PULL THEM BACK ON THE SAND PAPER. Only sand in one direction. Pick up the plates and return them to the original position and repeat.

Keep the sand paper clean. If you use a course paper to get things very close and a fine paper at the end the joint will close up perfect and you won't be able to find it once it is glued up.

It might take you an hour or two to master this, but once you do you can joint plates in 5 minutes.


Don't fret about struggling, we have all been there. I have been building guitars a long time, and I am just now getting to the place where I can reliably use a plane to joint a top in under 10 minutes.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:04 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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The 24 hr rule is a good one. Quit for the day works for me. If I had to count wasted hours, I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry I can't offer any ideas as I clamp the halves together and bump them on my 6 X 89 sander...done.
I'm not much for the booze and TV solution in the shop...may cause more problems than you wished for. :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:37 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Haans wrote:
I'm not much for the booze and TV solution in the shop...may cause more problems than you wished for. :shock:


Booze is one of those solutions where there is no room for halfheartedness, you either commit and drink enough so you can't stand up and hurt yourself with sharp and pointy things, or you stay dry, no room for quitters and those with weak bladders no sir ree.

Cheers

Kim


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:23 am 
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Koa
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Tai Fu wrote:
No thanks.. I tried ebay, apart from there being a ton of xenophobic sellers who only ships to lower 48 (because filling out one more paperwork is too much work)


There is a lot more to it than just filling out paperwork. It can be a serious time sink. All international packages have to be sent from the post office. For me, that's a guaranteed 45 minute wait or longer. They shut down the other post office in town last month. Insurance is kinda pointless. USPS will let you insure it, but coverage stops the moment it gets handed off to the receiving county's postal system. You can't buy insurance from the receiving country long distance. You know neither one of them will admit blame if a package goes missing or its damaged. Why should they? You are the one who loses. Unfortunately some countries are notorious for being a black hole, Italy comes to mind, which just taints the entire community. If I were selling on eBay, I wouldn't ship internationally. It has nothing to do with being lazy. I've done it numerous times from friends and forum members, but I know that they won't be send me an email saying that the package didn't arrive or arrived damaged and they expect me to return their money and I couldn't even use the insurance to cover some of the costs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:29 am 
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Koa
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fingerstyle1978 wrote:

When I get home I will check on postage for 3 planes to Taiwan. I recently ordered a couple pounds of abalone from Taiwan and I don't remember postage being so high after combining shipping for 6 types and grades of shell. Planes are heavier, but the difference should not be that great. I don't mind filling out the customs form if it will help you out. We have a bunch of them sitting at my house right now since my family ships me stuff here in the Middle East all the time.


Joey, do what you can to get them into an international flat rate box. Makes a huge difference in price. There is a large flat box that should work for you. You'll probably have to disassemble the plane to be able to wrap and pad the parts.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:52 am 
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Koa
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Brock Poling wrote:
I can help you.

I have sanded LOTS of tops and backs in this manner (I use a surface plate rather than that tool, but the same principle applies)...................................................



My "surface plate" is my table saw. I use the fence to keep the top or back plates at a 90 degree angle. I just stick adhesive sandpaper on the bed, the move the fence over it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:12 am 
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Koa
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I think my problem is that I allowed my blood alcohol level to drop too low. (JUST KIDDING!!!)

Actually I think part of my problem is that my "surface plate" sanding jig is being clamped to an uneven surface causing the cupping of my wood.

I've watched the video links provided from Kathy Matsushita - and tried the recommended tricks - but it didn't help.

Thanks Brock for the advice of sanding only in one direction.

I may try clamping my sanding jig to my band saw deck and see if it helps.

I've got some old wood around - so it may be time to learn now to use my plane.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:15 am 
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Paul, I'm sorry. It takes me a while to get nicely jointed plates too. I'm using a plane. Once you get it though, the motion has a way of locking itself in.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:59 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Todd Stock wrote:
I sent a nice #3 and a couple of L-N tools to Oz and to the UK...flat rate boxes and very quick delivery. Don't send anything that cannot be replaced...and agree that insurance works only with FEDEX and UPS, and only up until the packages got to local distribution.


The thing is, the rest of the world offers surface shipping, which may be slow but it is 1/3 the cost of airmail. USPS discontinued that service several years ago. Surface is good if you are importing a large quantity of wood, which would be outrageous if sent by airmail.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:37 am 
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Koa
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They took away my mailbox and make me walk down to the corner to a cluster box that the rest of my neighbors use too. They closed the only other Post Office in my town last month. They've been cutting back on lots of things since they now have to make a profit. Which is why stamps went up again last month.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/03/news/companies/usps_postal_service_privatize.fortune/index.htm

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:44 am 
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Cocobolo
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Paul, in regard to the failed method of using a router to joint the wood, your friend has the technique wrong. The router method used for laminates and veneers is to place the 2 pieces side by side (not sandwiched), just as they will be glued together. They need to be supported and clamped down on blocks of wood, with a gap between the 2 pieces of just a bit less than the width of the router bit. Clamp down a straight edge for a fence and make one pass with the router, using a straight-cut bit, not one with a guide bearing. The edge of the router base plate bears against the fence. With this method, any slight concavity in the routing of one edge will be mirrored by a convexity on the other. However, you will be much happier to master the plane and shooting board method.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:50 am 
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Cocobolo
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Her is my experience:
I have just start building my #2.
On my first I have used the sanding method (because it was the easiest and the fastest)and the result was almost perfect.
On my second I have tried the above method again and I was also about to star throwing things. [headinwall]
So I took a pause and went to study again my books and DVD's about hand planes (how to sharpen and use them) and also all the information on youtube and here on the forum.
I bought an inexpensive nº6 plane, spend a lot of time truing the sole and then I tried the shooting board method.
To my surprise after a while I had a very good result; I tried a few pases more and it was also a perfect joint. One can say that it was beginners luck ;) but I don't think so.
At this moment I am not at home but there is a technique in one of the DVD's that explains very well how to join 2 pieces.
If you are interested I can tell you the name of the DVD. Or perhaps I should try to explain it here but my English is not very good.
So , IMHO, I think you should move towards the shooting board solution


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:00 am 
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Koa
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It is all about perspective, too.

One can say that they spent 4 frustrating hours on a task that should have taken 10 minutes.

OR

They can say that they spent 4 hours learning how to do a task that should take 10 minutes once they become proficient.

The acquisition of knowledge, wisdom, and skill is a slow, tedious, frustrating, and bewildering process...with periodic moments of jubilant revelation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:30 am 
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do it my way!!!!! :D ;) duh


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:19 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Paul Burner wrote:
I think my problem is that I allowed my blood alcohol level to drop too low. (JUST KIDDING!!!)


Or, as a friend of mine says, "Sh*t, I have way too much blood in my alcohol stream!"
gaah


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:24 pm 
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I am not so think as you drunk I am


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:02 pm 
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Guys, guys, cold beers are not the answer. Cold beers are the question - the answer is "yes"!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:44 pm 
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Yo, Paul

after reading the litany of all the things you don't have,

I put it to you that what you really don't have is the right attitude for this type of hobby.

May I suggest something more rewarding like biking or kayaking with the wife.


blessings
duh Padma

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:28 am 
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Mahogany
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the Padma wrote:
Yo, Paul

after reading the litany of all the things you don't have,

I put it to you that what you really don't have is the right attitude for this type of hobby.

May I suggest something more rewarding like biking or kayaking with the wife.


blessings
duh Padma


Or maybe he DOES have the right attitude for this hobby, and it is just that everything pilled up on him that day. A day where nothing seemed to go right, and he just got frustrated. I think everyone here has had incredibly frustrating days with guitar building. Voicing frustration doesn't mean that we don't have the right attitude for this hobby. It simply means that we are learning things the hard way and it is testing us. I have been in his place many times and I think most the time all you need is for someone to say "yep been there, you'll be fine and you'll figure it out."

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:12 am 
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douglas ingram wrote:
The acquisition of knowledge, wisdom, and skill is a slow, tedious, frustrating, and bewildering process...with periodic moments of jubilant revelation.



Words to live by Douglas.
I'm going to hang onto this one.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:37 am 
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Hey Paul my friend. We've all been there, you'll make it through.

Heck, the two guitars I'm working on right now BOTH are onto their 4th top because I've screwed up somehow on the previous 3......... Now that's been frustrating pretty much to the point where I HATE these guitars. They are going to be nice once I'm finished but......DANG!

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