Official Luthiers Forum!

FYI, in the Cleveland v. Piper case, Piper aircraft had specifically designed the plane to be flown in the manner that the pilot flew it -- i.e., with a camera installed in the front while the pilot flew it from the back seat. The pilot himself did not install the camera; rather, he hired an FAA-certified mechanic, who installed the camera in precisely the way that Piper's design was supposed to accommodate. The jury ruled that the plane was defective because, when the plane was flown in this manner (as Piper had designed it to be flown), other parts of the plane obstructed the pilot's view. The jury found that, because the plane had been designed to be flown in this manner, but because the pilot's view would be obstructed from this position, the plane was defectively designed. The jury also believed the pilot's testimony that, as a result of this defect, the pilot did not and could not see the vehicle that was obstructing the runway.

Juries don't always get these things right. But as Howard has suggested repeatedly in this thread, the jury hears a lot of facts that you probably don't pick up just by reading a short article which, for the purpose of journalistic sensation, tries to make a case sound more outrageous than it really is.

I have often wondered why the manufacturers turned down the technology. I think I have an idea. Once you have such a technology, you are in a sense gaurenteeing the user that he is safe from the blade. But nothing, not even SawStop is 100% safe. And eventually, as the number of users increases, there will be cases where the SawStop technology fails and when it does, SawStop will face a lawsuit big enough to bankrupt it. I believe the other manufacturers caught on to this and just hoped Gass would go away.

Gass himself is using a despicable technique to engender support for his technology.

...but then again, I often wonder how I would feel with some of my finners laying on the table.

Gass has created the ultimate business killing technology ever... one that ironically will make him a lot of money for a while unitil it too bites him in the arse.

Mike

I think we should shoot chickens (dead) and hotdogs at high velocities into the spinning blade...

That could get expensive.

I'm not in one. I'm on the high ground. But when you imply that you have secret knowledge that makes you right, but you don't say what it is , I would say you are facing uphill. (you did say a friend sent you the news article; if you had personal knowledge of the case, that might have been a good time to divulge it. I fairly assumed you had posted what you knew, rather than assume you were hiding something relevant from us).

Mark, you said yourself there is no proposed rule, and the rule-making process has not been initiated. Just as I said, no proposed rule. Anyone can ask the CPSC to investigate; just as anyone can sue anyone else, anytime, over anything. That's part of living in a free society. One the ironies here is that the people who claim to be on the side of freedom appear to be suggesting (I keep asking what you guys want, but you don't say--preferring to be mysterious-- hence I speculate) that someone (who if not the government?) intervene in our system of due process, and deny some other people access to the courts and to attorneys and to have their rights adjudicated by their fellow citizens. Doesn't sound very American to me!

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

"Our understanding is that the commission directed the staff to begin the rulemaking process, although the rule has not yet been published in the Federal Register."

That is what the article said, to me it looks like they are beginning the process according to the article.

If they did implement this flesh technology that's fine with me because according to the SawStop website to retrofit the SawStop on existing saws would cost more then the saws themselves, unless they have a grandfather clause for all the existing saws (which are deemed defective by Gass), all table saw owners would be receiving new saws. Bring it on!

I propose a keg party. And super soft, super extra large boxing gloves (like that crazy show on tv where everybody is cacooned in super bouncy sta-puff suits). It will be a riot and we can all get back to what is the most fun.

I follow several forums and THIS issue does more to divide woodworkers than almost any other issue. Its almost as bad as politics and religion.

C'mon! Go sniff a sound hole and remember why you are here in the first place.

Somebody pump that kegger for me, will ya?

Mike

President and CEO of Sound Hole Sniffers, Not Incorporated (and big Stella by the Keg fan)

Today, the real question would have to be "Now that you know about SawStop, how many of you have incorporated it into your own tools? And if not, Why do you wish to remain negligent?"

I know I will be very hesitant to let ANYONE walk into my shop to use any of my tools. Even a friend. Freedom?

Tim

Not to be biligerent on this point, but the reason is because I don't like the technology and am not prepared to accept the PERCEIVED benefits over the loss of flexibility in operation. Even if the safety system can be deactivated for other uses (kinda defeats the purpose and shows the limitations in the technology) then the saw is no better than my unisaw. So for me to move into this and with litigative potential hanging over my head (were I in the US), I could not sell my unisaw and would have to re-invest in Gass's unit (loose $2.5K and re-invest $3K or so, so now the saw actually costs about $6,000!). Now THAT is capitalism. There is a saying in the Health and Safety circles: "nobody moves, nobody gets hurt"! We can make ever tool nearly fool proof with safety devices and no one would need to respect them. Don't get me wrong, if Gass invented a unit that could do all that my current saw could and didn't try to ram it down my throat then if I ever needed (I likely won't) to replace my saw I would consider his. It is reported to be a quality saw, but today with the SawStop's limitations I would buy another unisaw. I feel confortable with that, I live in Canada and these types of suits are not at all common.

Shane

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Canada

Shane -A couple of Questions...

1) what do you see as the limitations of the Sawstop as a Saw. I know there are limitations on the brake and you will have to remember to to bypass the brake for some operations such as using a fret slot blade, cutting pressure treated wood, or using a crosscut sled with a conductive surface. But I am not aware of any operations that can be performed on a Uni that could not be performed on a SawStop

2) why do you feel it is no better than the Unisaw ? I've spent a lot of hours using a Uni and from what I see, the SawStop is a better built saw; less backlash in the adjustments, better fence, better duct collection, etc. Certainly these benefits along with the brake come at a higher cost and clearly one could debate whether they are worth the cost, but the benefits seem to be pretty apparent.

P.S. another reason to dislike the SawStop is the concern for future parts availability. If they go under, perhaps due to a lawsuit from someone who gets injured using one of their safe saws, where will you get new brake cartridges ? Will you be able to maintain the electronics is 10 years ? 20 ?

thanks,

-jd

Hey John,

I think I am one of the few that REALLY like the Unifence. Many prefer the Biesmeyer fence. My saying that the SawStop is no better than the unisaw is an unfair statement as I have not actually used the SawStop. What I was really inferring is that I do not at all find the unisaw lacking in any regard (except dust collection but a couple of mods has fixed that). But if you disable the SawStop's feature to use it for other purposes does that not make it the same as the uni or other saws as far as safety goes (granted you reduce exposure frequency by turning it back on)? I have only read good things about the quality of the SawStop, but I have also only read great things about the newly redesigned unisaw as well. When I watched the video of the SawStop in full break mode I can see a severe amount of force exerted on the spindles (and bearings). Maybe it is designed to withstand these forces but they look scary to me.

Anyway, I think my first remarks in this thread were more along the line of people should be responcible for there actons to higher level than what I PERCEIVE happened in this case. I feel proud to have spent enough time on the tools to be a jouneyman carpenter and a professional cabinetmaker/woodworker. I have learned to respect the tools but still need bandaids once in awhile. I still have all of my digits (although a couple or dispraportionate) and I think the issue here was more the operator and not the tool.

Shane

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Canada

As far as limitations. I use a 7 1/4" Diablo on my saw 90% or more of the time. I'm assuming that this isn't possible on the SawStop, or at least not with a functioning brake system?

Thanks for the clear response Shane.

Darrel,

Disadvantage for the SawStop is that you will probably have to push bypass everytime you start the saw when using the small Diablos.

Disadvantage of the 7 1/4 Diablo is that you can get an uneven cut with a tendancy towards chipout (thin blade, high hook angle). The 24T works pretty good as a rip blade, but still can give uneven edge. The 40T is better left on the circular saw for chopping down plywood (my opinion -yours may be different)

Advantage of the Diablo is extra thin kerf. -I sometimes use the 24T to rip bindings. The wood is too thin to be stable enough to get perfect edges anyway

everything is a trade-off. There a lots of good 10" Thin Kerf blades - thicker than the Diablo, but thinner than a standard blade that cover the middle ground and should work fine in the SawStop.

-jd

I've been using a 40T Diablo for several years and I get great cuts, very smooth, very straight and very clean. Granted most of the stuff I cut is 1" or less but I often cut kerfs in wide pieces before I take them to the resaw. Works for me. I wonder why there's a difference?

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Y'all need a Stella!

I also plane or scrape edges prior to joining except when making jigs.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"