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I'm finishing up my first Kit build, and have had a lot of fun doing so. I'm planning my next build and was thinking of doing a classical; so I have a few questions.

1. What are the pitfalls of building a classical, from scratch, that I may not have encountered building my Martin OM kit.

2. What would you recommend as a good classical plan? What are the bracing options?

3. Where can I get said, plan and a template?

4. Need wood, for a beginner, who has the best for the price? Mid quaility stuff.

Thanks

Joe

I wouldn't call them pitfalls, but most classicals are built on a shaped workboard (solera) with the neck attached at an early stage- quite different from a typical SS build.


Lots of options there, but I'd recommend starting with a fairly simple fan-braced guitar - leave the Bouchet and Rodriguez styles for later. Time to hit the books- some possibilities are:
Cumpiano & Natelson, though you have to separate the SS and classical parts 'as you go', which I detest.
Courtnall- Making Master Guitars - expensive and you do need to buy the plan for your guitar as well..
Bogdanovich-Inexpensive and excellently illustrated, but has some details you don't need on a first build like laminated sides and making your own wheat purfling
Irving Sloane- the book that 'started it all' for many builders - simple and will get you to a decent guitar


You could build straight from some of the books above. LMI and the Guild of American Luthiers are two sources for plans. (I'm sure you can make a template from a plan?)
Plans vary in detail (a lot) so some can be tricky for a beginner.


Again, a kit might be the 'way to go'. Other than that, Allied or LMI would be my choices, with Allied being my preference.
I'd recommend sticking to 'standard' wood combos - cedar or spruce top with Indian rosewood b+s. IRW is a bit of a 'pain' for color bleeding, but otherwise is a great wood to use-bends well and sounds good.

I'm strictly 'non-expert', so you will want to pose more specific questions for the classical builders here.
If you want to check out the classical guitar world a bit more, the delcamp forum is an interesting (and civilized) place.
http://www.delcamp.us/
Cheers
John

There are lots of differences between classical and steel string guitars, as John listed, and, in general, classical guitars are built much more lightly than a SS. I started my building with a Romanillos plan, and still build that plan. I love it. Small body, huge, complex sound, Spruce top. However, it does have some significant challenges that are different, and information while available, is not in any books I know of, that enlighten one to the details which make it different, but which make the guitar what it is.

If I were pressed, I'd say start with a Torres plan. GAL has a good one (Torres SE-114), and it produces a nice classical guitar. The folks I know who have built that guitar have been highly pleased with it. It is a relatively small body, but also has a big sound if one uses care in carving braces, and thicknessing the top. A pretty straight forward build, with a pretty normal 7 fan array with full closing braces. It does not have open Transverse Braces and such to deal with.

_________________
Waddy

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IMHO John and Waddy sum it up pretty well.....

I'm doing my first classical using Hauser's 1937 plan. Having done 19 S.S., the classical build is a wonderful departure/experience....read the books John mentions, and look at the build from a different perspective....the two most important differences, I think, relate to the neck as being an intergral/early part of the build and the soundboard bracing is different by allowing more transverse motion of the bridge.....and try to build light.

Good luck and have FUN!!

One thing that has not been mentioned here, is Dave Schramm's CD on building a Hauser guitar. It was the one thing that got me off the dime and made me cut some wood, on my first guitar. I was so bottled up in making a mistake that I didn't want to start. He starts his CD with botching a scarf joint. Somehow it made me realize it was OK to make errors, and that most of them can be overcome, one way or another. It's a good CD, and it is really good at sequencing a build. It also answers some questions on process that are missing from a lot of books.

Now, of course, I realize that "Errors R Us"! But, few, can't be overcome.

_________________
Waddy

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Hello gentlemen, I was reading your great comments, and appreciate your feedback. I to am new regarding luthiery adn am about to embrak on my first guitar build with much enthusiasm. I was considering building from the 66 ramirez plan first and template from LMI ( I liked the idea regarding the treble bar crossing the lower transverse bar in the upper bout, hearing that it creates a guitar with great balance ) but I have since changed my mind after some research. I have decided that my first build will be with the 37 hauser template and plans re-drawn by Brune sold by LMI. This plan is in milimeters and Inches ( I am an american living and working in Argentina...everything here is metric. )
Also it has the top thicknesses indicated in the plan which I felt would be an important factor that maybe wouldnt have been covered in the other plans
I will be building from Cumpianos book "Guitarmaking: Tradition and Technology" It was more expensive than Bogdanovichs book, built I felt after careful research that this book would be better suited to my noviceness regarding that this is my first build.
Anyways I was just curious regarding your thoughts towards these Re-worked Brune 37 hauser plans...maybe some pros and even cons ( they are saying it is geared more towards a beginning builder with the way it has been re worked and simplified

Anyone built from these plans?

Many people have built to the '37 Hauser plans successfully. Just keep in mind that not even Hauser himself was able to duplicate that guitar to the same success!

For myself I am more inspired by Torres than Hauser. Torres was the one who really got the "Spanish" guitar established as "THE" classical guitar. That well is deep and I am thirsty. Given my bias, I would recommend the Torres SE114 plan sold by GAL. It will produce a god guitar and give an excellent reference for all your future builds, given that Torres instruments are the de facto reference for all classical guitars.

I have read all the books suggested, I would recommend the Courtnall book above the others. It is the most complete, specific, and useful. I am not putting the others down, but if I had to chose just one this would be it.

There are many sources for materials, the ones mentioned are the most widely know and all have good reputations.

I will advise that for your first you put far more emphasis upon developing and applying your skill than to buying the "best" materials. Its not the material that make the guitar, it is the luthier.

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I'm definitely with Doug on this one. While the Hauser plan is an excellent plan, it does have some idiosyncrasies that generate a few difficulties in the build, i.e., lack of specificity of top doming created by the bridge only, the patch under the fingerboard over the body, the .002 - .004 relief in the fretboard, to mention a few. I'm not saying it won't make a great guitar, as it can. Just a little more detail to trip up your first endeavor. If you decide to build the Hauser, or any classical guitar, as mentioned in my prior post, I recommend the Dave Schramm CD, in addition the the Courtnall book. Courtnall is expensive, but has more pertinent information in it, to understanding classical construction, than Coumpiano's book. Check Abe Books and ALibris to see if you can find a used one. Sometimes you'll see them for less than $70.00 which would be a good buy. I'm not saying Coumpiano is not worth a read. I think it is, but it's hard to use as a build book, even though lots of folks do it, because it's less expensive. It's not a bad book, just not a good reference book, IMO. Both of the mentioned books have their shortcomings, but the Courtnall book just has so much more information relative to understanding the classical guitar and it's development.

_________________
Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I might take some flak for this but I'm going to say it anyway: Bolt-on necks work just fine on a classical guitar and you might find that makes things easier in many regards. However if tradition is important to you, forget this comment.

Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

I'm with you on that, Pat.

Good classicals have been built with bolt-on, dovetail, and unattached (e.g. Smallman) necks - lots of variety.
For an experienced steel-string builder, bolt-on/dovetail would make a lot of sense. For a beginner, probably the 'trad' way will find more support (plans/CDs/books/online).

Cheers
John

Another vote for the Elliott GAL Torres. It's fairly detailed as plans go, although you may or may not follow the soundboard thickness. The Courtnall book is the best out there in terms of detailing the traditional Spanish method of construction. As far as Neck/body joints go the slipper foot with wedges is relatively easy. I've never done a bolt on but Dovetailed necks can be a bit of a challenge. They all work.

The Courtnall book is called "Making Master Guitars if I am correct? I will check into that. Ok I guess I have a few more questions. How do you guys feel about the 1966 ramirez plan is? Could that possibly be an easier more detailed plan to work from than the hauser? I believe it calls for a guitar that is slightly larger than say a Torres or Hauser style. I was originally attracted to it becuase of the angled treble bar going up from the corner of the lower bout across the lower transverse bar, but I gotto thinking maybe iots not a good plan to start with...what do you guys think about me starting with that one?

Also I found that I can get Wenge hear fairly plentiful from Luthiers supplies suppliers here in Argentina. How would Wenge stack up for a first time build and builder? How does it compare lets say to EI Rosewood?

I appreciate your advice and look forward to your responses guys!

Eric-
The 'new' Hauser plans by Brune are quite good- the 'box set' has 3 sheets on Mylar, so you can get paper copies made for shop use. As Waddy has pointed out, there are a few 'things to 'watch for' that may not be in the plans, but that is true of most of the plans I've seen. Buy the Schramm CD if you go for the Hauser.

Well, I'm building a guitar (two, actually) from the Rodriguez plans (by Blackshear), which also have an angled bar. I'm not sure the angled bar is such a 'big deal' tonally, and it does introduce another brace crossing, which can be fun, or challenging, or a 'pain' depending on what sort of day you are having!
I'd recommend a Torres guitar, or the Hauser , but you should really build what appeals to you, (my opinion only). My guess is that you have quite a few guitar projects in your future - lots of chances!

I haven't built a guitar (yet) with Wenge but I have cut some guitar sets from Wenge planks. It's nasty, splintery stuff to work with. Huge pores to fill. I've heard it makes a good guitar, though. I'd stick with EIR or something in the rosewood 'family' - don't your suppliers have some South American/Central American woods available? Try to get quarter-sawn wood- no wild grain stuff. You want something that will bend easily and will be fairly easy to work with.

Cheers
John

Thanks John!
Where can I purchase the Schramm CD ( or is this available only from the luthier himself? ) I am also checking into the Courtnall book recommended by the other guys ( have to convince the wife hahaa she is VERY supportive thank God )

From what I had read regarding the re-worked Brune plans is that these new ones are geared more towards beginners ( at least according to LMI ...maybe its a marketing ploy ) but anyways, I think I am going to stick with these plans. From what I see without having to compare the plans between Torres and Hauser, and of course my un-trained eye, it seems as if the differences between the two as far as appearance and size is very subtle? I am assuming the Hauser is slightly bigger ( in the waist and lower bout, not to mention top thicknesses ) than the Torres? I also like the Mylar idea...good quality plans that will last and like you said I could take them to paper if I wanted. I also found a Swedish builder online who builds guitars to hauser specs. he gives a good account ( with photos ) of the whole build online, and has included the specs for dishing out the workboard in the lower bout and planing for the neck relief in the workboard...seems very helpful...and he used mostly hand tools as well.

I think I will stick with EI Rosewood or maybe even the Pao Ferro ( Bolivian Rosewood ) as both have great bending and working props and glue up more easily, its quite heavily used here in Arg. the Wenge idea I will leave for " down the road" when I have cut my teeth more.

Let me know regarding the Schramm CD as well and where I can get it...gonna try to get a second hand Courtnall book at a reduced price if I can

Essentially, as you may have gathered, there is no one "definitive" book or plan for the classical guitar.
As for books, I would get a copy of Sloane mostly for it's fine overview and accesible methods, and a copy of Courtnall which includes several aspects of construction omitted in Sloane, the most important being the creation of neck "lift" through the use of an angled solera. Bear in mind that these present a somewhat different approach in many of the major construction sequences.
Plans run the gamut but I think the new and improved Brune '37 Hauser (boxed) plan is very good as well as the GAL SE 114 Torres plan. Neither one of these is simplified for the novice though and many of the other ones availalble (such as the Aram plan of the Romanillos) are devoid of the information that you need. These contain a wealth of detail that enable you to build very precise replicas of these two instruments if you wish to go to that extent.

While the Torres and Hauser guitars look very similar, there are myriad differences in the details that add up to a different end result. These are the differences that Waddy was referring to that are not necessarily described in the building plans, and the reason that David Schramm's CD is recommended.

The biggest difference that I have come to understand, is that Hauser worked to exploit the inherent properties of the wood itself, using thicker plates and tuning the top and back to specific resonances which work together. This is tricky business to get "just right".

Beyond all this, for a beginner, I always prioritize good construction and good playability. You cannot proceed to great musicality until you have this foundation.

Don't worry about a great finish till later, that only really matter when you are showing the guitar and hope for sales...Nobody will care how perfect the sheen is if the construction sucks, you can't play it, and it sounds like crap.

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

re: Books-
As David LaPlante has mentioned, the Sloane book is a useful addition to your library (as well as the Courtnall, though I balk at overpriced books).
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=irving+sloane&sts=t&tn=classic+guitar+construction&x=45&y=14
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=courtnall&sts=t&tn=master+guitars&x=41&y=15

As far as I know, the Schramm CD is only available from David Schramm at the link Filippo gave above:
http://www.onlineapprentice.com/
I'm not sure how often that website is updated, it might be a good idea to email Mr. Schramm when you order. I don't know if this email address is current:
David Schramm Guitars <ddschramm@comcast.net>

Rosewood sounds like a good bet. The cost of decent wood is not great considering the hours you will spend with it. By 'decent', I mean straight-grained, non-rare, and relatively cheap!
All the rosewoods have been reported as allergens, and PauFerro is often mentioned in particular. So be sure to work in a well-ventilated area and protect yourself from dust when sanding and cutting. (Dust allergies are another good argument for planing and scraping where possible.) If you notice any allergic reaction (sneezing, skin rash, etc) take action to minimize contact.

Warm up that digital camera and take lots of pictures, and post them here as you build!

Cheers
John

I would disagree, totally, with your mentor, on that point!

_________________
Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Elderly ($33.95):http://elderly.com/recordings/items/DYNAMIC-CD433.htm

LMII sells the same 'box set' now, I notice- helpful if you can combine with other LMII items to reduce shipping costs.
Though the LMII price ($35.50) is a bit higher than the competition, shipping savings might make the difference.
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Plans%2C+Classical&NameProdHeader=Hauser%2C+1937

Strings by Mail is another source for the Brune box set ($33.95) - good string source and good shipping to Canada in my experience.
http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_174_775&products_id=4750

Cheers
John

re; Waddy's comment....

If your mentor meant:
"Use good standard materials. Follow one plan. Put it together and don't stop till you are finished. Make it playable. Don't think you will make the 'ultimate guitar' on your first attempt."
Then I'd agree.
I'm definitely in agreement with the idea that it's more useful to 'push through' with a fairly standard/basic instrument, rather than spending too much time trying to make the first one 'perfect'.

If he/she meant:
"Your first few guitars will not look good or sound good." (which I doubt was meant).... then I would disagree also.

Cheers
John

Nothing personal against your mentor, but I still disagree.

_________________
Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Me too. It's utter nonsense to lump all new classical guitar builders into one "novice woodworker" bin!

Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Actually Irving Sloans book is the only one I already have that I have been reading. It calls for boiling the sides in troughs and bending them on forms...I thought that was interesting. Also thanks to your experienced guidance ( everyone here who has left comments ) I have found Roy Courtnalls book second hand for U$S 60 and it is on order!! I am excited about getting this book in my hands and studying it out!
I amy go ahead and pick up the Cumpiano book as well from LMI, but I will probably rference the Courtnall book the most regarding building when I actually begin...seems to be the most complete and comprehensive. My wife and I are making a budget now for some of the tools that I am lacking, and also researching some of the cheaper woods here regarding the build. I am going to use some low-grade Englemann for the top and back and sides probably Algarobo ( the mesquite family ) or the Pao Ferro ...I can get it pretty cheap here, about 47 Argentine pesos for a whole set! divide that by 4 and you get the conversion to U$S dollars...so as you can see its pretty cheap!
I will be piecing together some woods for a future project when I feel I have some more experience under my belt to build a guitar thats made with better grade and quality woods...we´ll see in the beginning cheap andsimple...thats what I am after

As for the alergy aspect of some of the woods, I am going to check in on that more. I am a bit alergy prone...especially to dairy and wheat products...regarding airborne stuff we will have to see...but I am going to order some masks and goggles to work with in the shop. My initial focus is going to be constructing a solera and some simple jigs...like a scarf cutting jig for a table saw and also a shooting board...
I am hoping to begin launching out in about August or so...maybe late July ...the materials I ordered by LMI are being brought down by a friend and his wife who are coming to visit us in Argentina...so they wont be coming until late July...meanwhile I can read and continue to ask you guys questions! thanks for all fo your help!!!

Actually the Sloane book is really great, and was my first book on guitar construction, 30 years ago. I didn't build anything then, but I was interested. I must have read that book a dozen times, over the years. The side boiling thing is a little archaic, but some still do it, and it does work. Seems easier just to bend by hand or on a form with a blanket. Then you don't have all that drying time to wait out.

_________________
Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Eric-
Sounds like you are making a good start! Keep us posted as you go, please.
I wouldn't get too excited about a scarf-cutting jig- that's an easy one to do by hand, and clean up with a hand plane.
Something for bending sides should be high on your list. The boiling method is a bit outdated now, I think, though a good soak helps in bending most woods. A heating blanket might be worth investigating if your friend can bring it down to you. (I don't know if you are on 240 v supply?) Anyway, check LMII and JohnHall (BluesCreek Guitars link at the top of this page) for blankets.
The other thing you should do if you don't already have humidity control in your shop is to get that set up before summer arrives.
Sounds like you are on track with wood choices.
re: allergies and dust. If you can work outdoors at all, that is a big help, in addition to masks, etc. (Sounds like you have quite a temperate climate there. )Also, get used to stripping off your work clothes and putting them straight into the laundry after work - keeping dust out of the living area is important.

Cheers
John