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I'm working on the BanjoStop™ I'll be rich, rich I say!

It's called a sledge-hammer!

I doubt seriously if the jury even understood the implications of the case. It is a complicated issue, and most times the most intelligent jurors are let go, just for that reason. They make sure the jury will act on emotion, as much as possible. Juries of our peers are quite a joke. I don't think there was a graduate of anything on the last jury I saw selected. I was released along with most other folks who had any education to speak of.

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Waddy

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What about Banjo Stop. You can really hurt yourself on one of those things.

Sorry, you beat me to it.

It's not. This all could have been avoided had Gass and the major tool manufacturers come to an agreement a decade ago.

In addition, there'd be a lot fewer dismembered people out there.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Well I guess Andy this is where we diverge. I think we agree the forum (the courts) for this process is wrong but after 35 years on a conventional tablesaw I am still not convinced that this device is great for the saw or for woodworking. It is a great safety feature but I feel it diminishes some of the versatility of the most fundamental tool in a woodworking shop (mostly professional shop). Others may not agree but that is the beauty of free choice. Regulators should consult experts and analyze the data then come up with a series of options. Once that has been completed then an appropriate standard is developed which would include potentially a range of options that afford some minimum level of performance. What Gass is hoping is that his device is that minimum. Typically, developers of standards don't specify a particular device but rather a level of performance which ensures a particular outcome (although these processes are not devoid of politics as well....I am involved in a couple of these Canada/US processes in my day job). Anyway, I am good with agreeing to disagree.

Cheers

Shane

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Canada

And thanks to Stella Liebeck, who in 1992 successfully sued McDonalds for burning herself while holding a cup of hot coffee, between her knees, without the lid on, while driving her car, we continue to get such great legal stories such as this....

2004 Stella award runner up #7

Shawn Perkins of Laurel, Ind. Perkins was hit by lightning in the parking lot Paramount's Kings Island amusement park in Mason, Ohio. A classic "act of God", right? No, says Perkins' lawyer. "That would be a lot of people's knee-jerk reaction in these types of situations." The lawyer has filed suit against the amusement park asking unspecified damages, arguing the park should have "warned" people not to be outside during a thunderstorm.

Where there is a potential to make a lot of money off the stupidity of others, one can usually find a lawyer willing to make a case of it....

Oh, and I can't wait till we hear of the person who was successfully able to sue Gass and Saw Stop because he lost an eye due to a board kicking back. "Heck, all those Saw Stop video's on the internet show the saw without a guard, anti-kickback device or riving knife, what do I need them for...."


poor dead horse, but don't worry, one day you'll be able to sue all those who continue to beat you.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

How ironic that you bring up Stella Liebeck. Here's the rest of the story.



You may not be picking up what I'm laying down. Roughly 10 years ago, Gass invented the saw stop and shopped it around to every major saw manufacturer. They all refused. Perhaps he was asking for too much of a %-age or perhaps the man's. were scared of liability or most likely a combination of the two. Either way, the end result was a lack of choice: the technology existed but it wasn't available until Gass finally started his own company to get the technology out there.

People do not deserve to loose their fingers or lives just because they're stupid or more likely, ignorant or even just having a brain fart. Had Ryobi picked up the saw stop 10 years ago, I can all but guarantee you that it would be less than <$100 add on to any new saw at this point making it a real choice for everyone. Who's more likely to lose the finger? Is someone who uses a table saw 3 to 4 times a year even qualified to estimate the risk in using one? Should we remove all of the safety items from cars?

The behavior of both the tool industry and Gass are what's led to a lack of choice for us all.

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Maybe we should just learn to pay attention to what we are doing and keep our hands out of the saw. Wait.. asking people to think and be responsible for themselves that will never work. Maybe we should just outlaw anything with a point or sharp blade.

I really think the whole argument is kind of stupid. If someone is not vigilant in their own safety precautions, they are probably going to get hurt eventually anyway, if we protect them from the table saw then the will end up drilling a hole in the palm of their hand. What are we supposed to do, hire someone to escort them around all day and say don't do this, don't touch that, don't step there. Hey that kind of sounds like what I do with my three boys as a PARENT when they are in my shop. I don't discourage them from anything just because it might be dangerous because that is how they learn, but I do have to TEACH them to look out for THEMSELVES and I TRY to teach them to think about their actions and the consequences.

Had a friend a couple of years ago that reached under the edge of a piece of plywood while the circular saw was running to see if he had the blade set to go deep enough to cut all the way through. Yep, you guessed it , nice kerf cuts in 3 fingers. He is a very safe person to have around now.

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Tim

This is where we disagree. It's a perfect lesson. The more you protect the ignorant and careless, the more government in all of our lives. There is too much already. Nothing is more stupid than having to put on the outside of a cereal box, not to eat the box or the inside packaging. Anyone stupid enough to eat the packaging, deserves the result. Anyone using a table saw, should learn to use it efficiently and safely, without extra protection. You can't protect everyone from everything, ever, and it's ridiculous to keep trying. We have become a litigious society because we always want to blame someone else for our own lack of responsibility. Where does it stop? Somewhere, sometime, we have to "gut-up" and take the responsibility for our own actions, and not go after the big bucks. And don't tell me that's not what it's about. It is what it's about. Some nonentity, decides he can get rich because he was careless. It should not be possible. Give him $50 and give his "street ho" lawyer a quarter!

Sorry! Rant over!

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Waddy

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Here's the thing though and I mean this in a purely objective manner and not to be mean: you have no idea how many times your life and or limb has been saved due to someone else looking out for you. None of us do. Has your ABS ever kicked in? Ever trip a circuit breaker? Ever been in the hospital? Ever been to the Doctor? Ever work in a factory? Ever eat some food? Ever take a drug?

Even further, we have no way of knowing how many near misses we live through in ignorant . I'm lucky enough not to have lost any digits or limbs due to ignorance but I've met people who have and my grandfather lost 2.5 fingers due to a lack of safety equipment on a press in a factory. The thing is that having gotten out of a couple close calls, I understand how fast things can go from "fully in control" to "out of control".

Sitting here on the internet it's really easy to be black and white and absolute in judgement of "stupidity" of others. When things happen to you or a loved one, things can change quickly. At the end of the day, I'm mad at Gass and the industry for messing up this technology. I bought my table saw about 10 years ago for about $700 (contractor saw). Had I had a choice between it and a saw stop saw for $1000, I would have gone for the saw stop in a heart beat. As it is, a sawstop contractor saw is $1600.

If "the industry" hadn't rejected that technology to begin with, you can bet it would be a hell of a lot cheaper now.

If "the industry" hadn't rejected that technology to begin with, what leg would the plaintiff have to stand on if they chose not to purchase a sawstop.

If you think it can't happen to you, you're wrong.

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If you want to.....yes.

When one really considers the unholy alliance between insurance companies and legislators that resulted in a government that constrains us in our cars, it can actually seem oppressive to some people that venerate freedom. Today, I am a man held into my car seat with straps by authority. It's pretty simple really. A lot of us think this way, Andy.

I don't want government that attempts to save me from myself because I can think through safety issues for myself. I consider these attempts to be an insult. The more we let someone do our thinking for us the less accountable we become to ourselves. The more we allow governement to think for people the more undiscerning people there will be.

History does not provide positive examples of authority controlling undiscerning populations.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

I agree with that, Stuart. We are fast, becoming a nation, and a world, of undisciplined masses. It will be the downfall of us all. The more government forces down our throats, the more undisciplined the masses get. Eventually, they feel that government should also support them in their laziness! Some day, we all have to take responsibility for our actions or our stupidity. When will it be?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

The government did not force Ryobi to reject the SawStop. They gambled and lost.

o.k., Let me try and explain this one more time.

You are free to remove all of the safety gear from your car.

You are not free to add safety technology that has been stifled by the auto industry to avoid liability because it's not available.

The Saw industry tried to kill sawstop thereby eliminating a choice. The government didn't get involved until someone took it to court

Get it?

p.s. I'm not trying to point 100% of the blame on the saw industry, it sounds like Gass is an A-hole about the thing too.

p.p.s. Why is everyone so happy to pile on the idiot who cuts of his digit but no one piles on the industry that rejected an idea that could save peoples digits? Other than a few key areas, corporations are treated like "people" in the eyes of the law. If an individual displays sociopathic behavior he's labeled a sociopath and is treated as such. When a business does the same, their stock goes up and they're applauded for keeping their shareholder's interest at heart. News flash: it really isn't all about money. Everyone on this list knows that, that's why we do what we do. Hows about we start holding corporations to the same level of social responsibility we hold one another. If the saw industry would have voluntarily added sawstop as an option, we wouldn't have any of these threads. As it is, they rejected it for who knows what reasons and you know what, I'm glad they're paying now. Perhaps next time a safety innovation comes around they'll implement it instead of trying to stay in the stone ages like they did with saw stop: free market at work right?

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Another source for the truth about Stella Liebeck vs. MacDonalds (there are less objective accounts available that make MacDonalds appear even more outrageous): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v. ... estaurants

The "Stella Awards" BTW are fictitious incidents and no legal record of these supposed actual cases can be found. They are made up, perhaps by someone who stands to gain by perpetuating the myth of greedy plaintiffs and juries that go insane en masse. See Snopes.

Waddy, you should be ashamed of yourself. You just said that people who are stupid or careless deserve to lose fingers or lives. The kindest thing I can say to you is that you may be the innocent dupe of a decades-long campaign by the insurance industry and their shills in media and government to increase their profits by spreading misinformation about how the tort system functions.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

the whole system is screwed up. what will happen is someone with enough funds to lobby for the installation of this device on all new saws , will buy the patent, lobby for this law to be bundled in with several ( or hundreds of )other laws . and it will be passed , the inventor will retire happily ever after at our expense. Jody

Umm, Bob, I think the idea of voting in an election is not quite the same as picking a winner in a horse race. Do you vote for the person you think is most likely to win, so you can afterwards claim to have been "right?"



Since I can't believe that you think one unusual case can prove anything about about a system that generates 100's of 1000's of verdicts each year, I'll instead assume that this is a mere rhetorical device. Here's another: if you were charged with a crime, who would you rather have decide on your guilt or innocence?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

So in your first sentence you state that they didn't suppress it then in your next paragraph you explain why the industry suppressed it?

If you look up the definition of "suppress", you'll see that by passing on the technology for whatever reasons, the industry did indeed suppress SawStop.

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I don't need to defend Todd, as he can well do that himself, but you are putting words in his mouth that he didn't say. His second paragraph, was, "After the majors took a pass..." My understanding was that it was shopped to them separately, not as a group. No collusion there.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

The fourth post (by Tony Karol) mentions the Chisel-stop. The band-aid on my thumb reminds me that this is something I am clearly in need of. Judging from the number of chisel-induced injuries I have sustained over the years, they are clearly one of the most dangerious tools in my shop.

Should I sue Two Cherries for making some of my favorite tools ?

-jd

I should add that on a more serious note: While expensive, the Saw Stop does look like a very nice saw. Very solid, smooth, and precise. Also good dust collection and a nice solid fence.

For luthiery, you will need to run in bypass mode for several operations (such as using a fret-slot blade)

-jd

Are you attempting to imply evil intent to an entire "industry" by insisting that they have conspired to "suppress" this technology? We both know that the word "suppress" carries negative connotations so when you argue semantically like this it appears to belie an agenda. Please clarify this point.

I intend to be free. To be free and profitable, a business needs to be able to make decisions based on a set of facts salient to their business. The "industry" took a close look at SawStop and could not incorporate it into their products profitably. That should have been the end of it but SawStop initially chose to operate outside of the free market and instead, rely upon the ruling establishment to create a market for their product. That rubs me the wrong way.

Eventually Sawstop arrived in the right position - in my opinion. they gave up trying to control the market and instead entered into it. Now, if the technology is 100% effective, and some people are willing to pay big bucks to have a machine watch over certain aspects of safety, then SawStop will have snagged a piece of the market and find themselves profiting on an idea of merit.

Todd said, "The consensus within that company was that the technology was expensive, limited in its effectiveness and application.." Hehe…..so is government when it attempts to create responsible human beings. If SawStop technology is consistently effective the world will beat a path to their door. No one can honestly sell a product if they don't make something that people actually want so there are no shortcuts to sales unless you are willing to forego ethics. I perceive the initial efforts of SawStop as a ploy to create legislation that forced a legal monopoly. That is a major compromise of ethics in my book.

Also, underlying all of this is an attitude that says no expense should be spared on measures that could produce a risk free world. That attitude will kill us all faster than any table saw.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

[/quote]rely upon the ruling establishment to create a market for their product. That rubs me the wrong way.[/quote]

It rubs me the wrong way also. I think the saw stop is a great idea, but the way he is going about trying to drum up business is wrong. To say that a saw without the Saw Stop installed is defective, that would mean that everyone of us who owns a table saw, owns a defective saw and we would have the right to sue. The guy has a personal vendetta with Ryobi because they didn't follow through with the contract, well he should have taken Ryobi to court for breach of contract, not become an ambulance chaser. I have the technology you have to put this on every table saw, blah, blah, blah, complete crap. Pardon my french.

Kind of like BP did? Or Massey or Goldman-Sachs or Merck or Enron or Exxon or .......

I don't have a strong opinion about the Sawstop case but as for regulation, I have to wonder; if private enterprise can be so cavalier in this supposedly over-regulated nanny state, what would things would look like with less government and court involvement?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

That would be the part that results in huge punitive damages when a company weighs if it's cheaper just to let the fingers and limbs get detached (injuries which are well-documented and expected) than to build a safer but more expensive device.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR