Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello all,
I am buffing out an Em6000 finish using Micro Mesh dry and with the supplied foam block that comes with the kit. I have gotten tips on here to try wet sanding with it using mineral spirits but I did not have very good luck doing that. .....probably due to practice issues because I have never done wet sanding before. May be with practice it will go better.

I have been using a tip that I got here to sand 90 degrees to the previous grit on every grit used and that has been working very well. I can see every scratch that I need to get out when held to a strong light so nothing is missed. I switch to a circular pattern during the last three grits.

Anyway, I have finished my neck using all the grits in the kit and it looks fantastic! It is the best looking gloss I have done to date (which has not been many by the way). I really can not ask for anything better than this, I am totally pleased. The issue is it took me about 5 hrs straight to get it to look this good using all of the grits! I am working on the body now and my arms are about to fall off and I am only to 1200 grit!!!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated (as I can not afford any more Aleve)

I understand that wet sanding is supposed to be more efficient. Providing a lubricant to a. let the paper last longer and b. help it cut better. I honestly did not notice that much difference at all when trying to sand out the previous grit using mineral spirits.

I am ready to switch gears because it will be next year before I get this done. I was thinking of going two ways. (also, I do not have an arbor and this is happening in my garage)

1. Trying to get a medium and fine liquid compound locally at one of the auto stores and dedicated foam pads I can attach to a hand drill to buff the rest of the way after using the micro mesh dry up to 1000 grit. Can anyone recommend any suppliers that would have this...Auto Zone, etc. Pro- can get it tomorrow and start, con-is not exactly formulated for guitar finishing....

2. Getting 2 foam pads from stew mac and using their medium and fine compounds after using micro mesh up to 1000. Pro-formulated for guitar, con- have to wait!!!

I am not sold on going to 1000 then to medium. I can use course first if that is recommend. That has to be faster than what I am doing.

I really would like to try to get some local products if I can to get started, but if there isn't any available then I will order what I need.

Again the finished product is really good.....I have no complaints....it just takes forever to get there (the way I am doing it).

Thanks for all the help so far guys!

Matthew

I know I'm trolling the thread now, but maybe this will make you feel better: for a french polish I now spend some 20 to 30h (2h to cover all the guitar, twice a day for about a week) of arm felling rubbing to get a solid amount of finish on, not counting another bunch of hours rubbing with pumice to fill the pores. Maybe my technique is flawed but I enjoy the workout

_________________
Build log

Matthew, I have used MicroMesh on more finishes than I care to count and have had great success after a short learning curve. First of all, it is imperative that you use a water wetting solution to keep the paper from clogging. Mineral spirits or naptha work very poorly from my experience. I find that warm water with a light mixture of hand wash detergent works best. I use a 2 quart plastic ice cream bucket filled half way with warm water and add about 10 drops of Palmolive or equivalent. Keep the paper and the surface wet and use a small 3M rubber squeege to remove the water between grits. Work through all of the grits from 1500 through 4000 if you plan to wheel buff or continue with the 6000 and 8000 if you are using a polishing compound instead of a wheel.

You will find that one set of 3" wide sheets will easily do a guitar and neck when you use it with soapy water. If you want to save money on Micro Mesh, go to the website and purchase 12" sheets of each grit. Each 12" square will yield 8 of the standard 3" X 6" pieces.

Mike Franks
http://www.mjfranksguitars.com

Hi Matthew,

I gave up on Micromesh. It seemed to me that the grits were coarser than the sandpaper "P" grits (so it was difficult to know where I was, and it was like going backwards from the pre-finish 220/320 sandpaper grit), there are too many of them (IMO), and they are wicked expensive. I switched to 3M wet/dry paper. I start at 600 and then go up 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, and that's it with the paper, then it's on to the buffing wheels (two grades of Menzerna and I'm done). Micromesh 12000 grit seems coarser than 3M 2500 to me.

I use water (carefully) and wash/wipe up carefully after every grit. I spend the longest amount of time on the coarser grits. The trick seems to be to NOT press hard, but let the wet paper kind of capilliary-action down to the surface of the finish and drag it - you can feel the resistance. You only have to go over any spot on the guitar once or twice max if you get this "suction" action going.

If it's taken you 5 hours so far and you're still not done, I'd have to say you're not doing it right (sorry!). It sounds to me like your finish didn't go on very flat, and you're spending a lot of time and effort at the higher grits trying to flatten the finish surface instead of getting it flat at 400 or 600 grit (or even coarser!) before moving up to the next grit. The higher grits are only supposed to be removing the tiny surface scratches left by the previous grit - it doesn't take much effort or time to do that (less and less as you go higher up the grits).

As a reference for you, going at a fairly casual rate, and certainly not with any arm ache (because I'm dragging the wet paper, not pushing it or pressing down hard), I can get a guitar flat sanded up through the grits and polished to a pretty good mirror finish on the buffing wheels in about 3 hours.

FWIW, I got a great tip from Bruce Sexauer once - the perfect foam pad for flat sanding/polishing can be made from a cut up pair of flip-flops! That's what I use all the time now ('cuz I can't find my Micromesh pad any more...).

Cheers,
Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

I have used EM6000 on about six guitars, the first guitar I buffed using EM6000 was by hand. It took awhile and looked okay at best. I purchased a buffing set-up after that first one. I started sanding with water on the first one, the finish looked like it had witness lines so I switched to dry sanding. I finished the next two dry sanding. It still took awhile to remove the previous scratches, I think dry sanding puts in deeper scratches then if you wet sand, and using a buffing machine really improved the final finish. I now wet sand using a little bit of water, I don't like using chemicals. I start with 600 grit, then 1000 grit and finish with 1200 grit. The finish still looks like it has witness lines, but those will disappear when I buff on the machine. I start with the medium compound wheel and finish with the fine compound wheel. I get a better looking finish and in much less time doing it this way.

Using any type of machine buffing will definitely improve your finishing and make it go quicker. It is just a matter of what route you want to take and the funds you have available. I have used Novus #3, and Novus #2 finishing a table top. I used a random orbital sander with a buffing pad attached to it, That worked great on the table. The Novus #3 I purchased online and the Novus #2 I picked up from the local Harley Davidson dealer. The buffing pad was from Menards and made by Bosch. This would be the cheapest route to take.

I think wet sanding will make it go quicker for you, but doing it by hand takes more effort and a lot of time. Good luck in whatever route you take.

Thanks for the insights guys!
Ed

I buffed up a guitar with EM6000 on the weekend that worked out pretty well I think.

Here's what I did. Dry sanded after the EM600 went on with 800 grit paper. Then I let it cure for 3 weeks. I think this is a key point.

After 3 weeks I hit it with 0000 steel wool. Then I started with pumice and mineral spirits. First 2f then 4F. Then the same thing with Rottenstone. Then I polish it up with buffing wheel and dry compounds.

The Pumice and the Rottenstone worked really well for me.

Neil

To my mind the best thing about micromesh is that the wide range of grits fall between the "cuts" of rubbng compounds and can be used in between them.
For instance, I'll FP using regular 320, 400 and 600 3M Gold paper to level as needed. Once I've done the final "glazing" and have a pretty good surface I'll buff with H4 ("heavy cut") mirror glaze. This will take off the sticky looking high gloss and level somewhat to a softer gloss.
This point is where the Micro mesh is really effective, the 3600 grit is quite fine but will still refine and level the surface to a degree. I'll use it to further refine the surfaces that were buffed with the H4 and then follow with H2 ("fine cut") rubbng compound to further polish and refine. The point here is that the very fine 3600 grit leaves no scratches and is completely polished out by the H2. I can even get more refined by going after anythng remaining with 4000-6000 and using the Mirror glaze H7 glaze afterward.
The point is that it is not necessary to use Micro Mesh only all the way up through the grits if you use rubbing compound (either by hand or with a Stew Mac foam buffng wheel) to achieve your polish and use the appropriate Micro mesh grits in between to refine the surface.

Several posts have recommended wet sanding with water. Unfortunately, water is incompatible with EM6000. If you have to wet sand then use mineral spirits.

Why do you say water is incompatible with EM6000? Just curious.

I've had great success with wet-sanding micro-grit papers. It's not fast but the results are amazing after finishing
with 12000 grit. My polish process after that is easy. I've used them on lacquers and shellacs with good results.
The shellac requires an oil, at least in my hands, and I've gone to Walnut oil.
For lacquer, the key for me is to use the right polishing technique once you have finished sanding. I've had good luck
with a variable speed buffer with different pads. The safest are the rag pads, foam pads build up heat very quickly
and can burn a finish in no time. I wish I didn't know that. I've used every polishing compound on the market and
have gone back to 3m rubbing compound used carefully. It's gotten very expensive, Mothers has just introduced
a line for the automotive industry, my auto paint guy tells me it's getting popular.
I am so cheap that I throw the micro-mesh pads in the washing machine and re-use them. For a time at least,
then you need to cough up the dough and buy some new ones.
My experience.

_________________
Bruce Herrmann
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."

I know a guy with a hot rod (automotive) body and paint shop. The hot rod guys are really picky, almost as picky as musicians. He got me to try an automotive product on my instruments.
I level sand with 1000 grit wet or dry paper used wet, then go straight to 3M Perfect-it 3000, (part # 06070 available at auto paint stores) with a 3" foam buffing wheel. It takes about an hour to sand the guitar and about another hour to buff. I'm using KTM9, not the other product but the technique should work out the same.
Highly recommended!!! Beautiful and fast, one expensive bottle has done about ten guitars already and will last a while longer. Try it you'll like it......
Mikey

_________________
The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

Sorry for not responding much.....I am doing the work thing.

Currently I am going to try to find either a hand buffing pad or one that can be put on an RO sander. The ones at Homestead Finishing look good. Also, their compounds look good as well. If I can not find them locally to day I will order them online to see what I can get.

I am going to go to an auto parts store to see what they have to offer.

I will try to wet sand again to see if I can improve my technique. Looks like most of you do this then it is on to compounds on a wheel for you. I do not have a wheel so I am trying to do it with an RO sander or by hand.

Follow up question...what comes after the 3M Perfect-it 3000?....or can I stop there? I have sanded to 1200 grit (I think that is 3200 in the micro mesh system)so far dry. Can I get a RO pad and go straight to usign the 3000 from where I am or do I have to go higher and so I stop there or is there another product I can get locally to go furthur (if needed that is)?

Thanks for all of your comments......helps a lot.

Matthew.

3M also makes a great swirl remover which can be your final polishing agent. For hand
polishing, #7 Meguires has been around forever and still works very well.
In general, 3M products are expensive but you get what you pay for. I've painted cars
for years and the real pros are now using magnifying lenses and switching the sanding pattern
of their ultra-fine grit sanding, between papers, for really fine paint work. If they are doing it, we need to be as careful and particular- it seems to me. My years of hanging around auto paint supply houses and painting cars has not been wasted. Get to know your local supplier, they have often got really good advice and an assortment of sand papers you might have a hard time finding anywhere else.
My investment in a variable speed buffer with a velco attachment for a variety of pads
has paid off many times.

_________________
Bruce Herrmann
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."

Not to answer for Barry, I'll let him do that. I've been in on lots of discussions on EM6000 and I've read user reports of problems with wet sanding EM6000 with water including clouding and finish rolling up in little balls. Water seems to be ok for wet sanding if the finish is allowed to cure for a reasonable time (yeah, I know, so what's reasonable?). I was using micro-mesh and it seemed a bit much so I went to the wet sanding from about 800 to 2000 then novus (1 and 2 I think).

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

If you can't find the polishing compounds you need at the auto parts store than go to an auto paint store. They have lots of products and usually someone with some expertise.

René

The grit equivalents are as follows:

1500 MM = P400
1800 MM = P600
2400 MM = P900
3200 MM = P1200
3600 MM = P1350
4000 MM = P1500
6000 MM
8000 MM
12000 MM

Source: http://www.sisweb.com/micromesh/conversion.htm

_________________
Cheers
Pete

Wet sanding with water & micro mesh is ok if the finish is not em6000. That's why ms is used. Nobody said it was perfect, but try water and see for yourself.

Let's do the math. Let's say your time is worth $30/hr at work. 5 hours of hand buffing vs one on the buffer means the buffer is paid for in two guitars ( or less)

This assumes you will be building more than one guitar and are not a fan of French polish...

Well what a difference a couple of questions and 24 hrs makes!!!!

I went to Lowes and picked up 3 of the Gator hook and loop 5" RO polishing pads. Then went to Auto Zone and picked up Meguires (sp) Ultimate compound and Scratch X 2.o.

From a post a while back I read that the order of largest (most aggressive) grit to smallest grit (least aggressive)is....Meguires Ultra Cut, Ultimate Compound, Scratch X 2.o, then lastly Swirl X. I only went to the 2.o to see what would happen.....anyway

I installed the pad on my Bosh RO sander and started with the ultimate compound....remember I only went to 3200 in the micro mesh grit...which from above is ~P900 I think. After applying the liquid to the pad, and running at the highest speed and ~3:00 min of sanding, wiped it off and what a shine!!!!! I did the entire guitar with that one pad......by the way the pad is not very well made at all, after buffing the back and front it fell off of the hook and loop sheet that was holding it onto the sander so I did the sides by hand with the pad.......After the Ultimate compound I used a cotton shirt and did the scratch X2.o by hand. I spent a total of 2 hrs doing this and I got a really great shine and gloss that I am totally happy with.

A few learning’s and/or procedure check....

1. sand between coats with 600 grit after first level with 400 on the EM6000 product
2. sand using micro mesh up to the P900 equivalent after 7 days cure time.....still go 90 degrees to every previous grit to check progress.....I can get the sheets I need in larger sizes and cut them down to cut costs on the micro mesh papers.
3. Buff with the products I listed above with a better pad on my RO sander. .....I want to find that Ultra cut and try that first and maybe also finish up with the swirl X.
4. find better cotton tee shirts......when wiping off the semi dry compound after sanding I noticed I was putting scratches back in the finish.....I guess the shirts I was using picked up dust from the garage and I was going backwards .

follow up questions are........

1. Do you know if they still sell the Ultra cut compound?......if not what would be the equivalent Meguire product in an aggressive grit?

2. Can I use a paper towel or blue shop towel to wipe off the compound to check my progress and not impart deeper scratches back into the finish?

3. This is a tele type guitar.....how do you guys handle the sides and cutaways with an RO type sander....do you just do it by hand?

Thanks for all your suggestions guys.....you all have been a great help......on to assembly!!!

Matthew

Glad you're homing in on a method that works for you Matthew!

I can answer #2 - I use blue shop paper towel (from Costco) to clean up (with water) between grits - it works great (very absorbant).

Cheers,
Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"