Official Luthiers Forum!

exactly my point to !!!
Elmer, it seems like you and I are the only 2 non-golfers in here

If I didn´t know better one could almost think some of you all are bought
Ferarris are cool cars, dont meen I cant write in a car forum saying I think they are in my opinion a bit overpriced

Oh, but they are not! They are priced at exactly what the market wil bear. Every one built is sold every year, and there is always a waiting list. It doesn't get better than that, even for guitars.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

another one that got money under the table I see

alot of people ( me included ) is getting these strips for a better price through our good friend Mike.
I wonder why so many jumpt on that deal then, if the strips are sooo well priced at 26+???.
thats what I ment a bit lower and they would sell better. ( even from those who wasnt born with a spoon in the mouth )

Lars.

You got in on a group buy of Ferrari's? That's what my comment was about. You said they were over priced, I said they were priced for the market. I made no comment about ZipFlex, though, I doubt Kevin is having problems selling the product. My supposition is that he is being accommodating to a bunch of guys who want a break, and who might, eventually, buy more. What I call good marketing. Have you bought one of his guitars yet. That's more in the category with the Ferrari. Priced for the market. I'm pretty sure he knows what the market price is for his products. You also have to assume that it's a relatively small market, and the development and initial manufacturing costs are high. Some things need to be priced a bit high, because they are better than the other products, and save the user a lot of time. If it takes an hour less to use ZipFlex, then it has saved you, at minimum wage, $10.00 for one guitar, maybe more, as you don't have to buy the additional black purfling either.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Waddy --

Also, it is not luthiers that are buying Kevin:s instruments is it ?.
I dont know many luthiers that could afford one !. and its just like ferraris, its the brand not the quality that sells. I could bet you that bourgeois guitars as an example are tonally equally as good as a Kevin Ryan, (depending on taste) but they cost way less. yes its the market. but it can be viewed and used in different ways. I have nothing against Kevins Pricing when it comes to his instruments as they are sold to a certain group of people, within his market. To use the same strategy to us luthiers is in my eyes not as good.
I know - dont buy them then - true. I am just saying what I have at heart. and like Elmer wrote. this is a good place to talk about this as we are the customers and perhaps its good for a seller the know the views of atleast some of the potential customer.

I know I may come out as sounding like an ass, sorry if thats the case.

I remember when I started with this building guitars thing ( not long ago) Bob At Rc offered to send me some maccasar bindings free,!!! just to help me out.!!! I am most of all talking about a certain mentality, this mentality is getting harder and harder to find though.

Lars.

In the words of the indomitable "GRUMPY" ..... <SIGH>

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I somehow doubt that the main market are the one-to-three-guitars-a-year-just-for-the-fun-of-it-luthiers, but the luthiers who generate a considerable (or even the sole) amount of annual income from building guitars. Those luthiers who can charge $400-$500 for a abalone-bound soundboard. So what we're looking at here is business-to-business marketing and pricing, not business-to-consumer marketing.

As such, AST offers a much more efficient product - one that allows luthiers to inlay a shell purfling line in about the same time as a bwb purfling line (which is included in the base price of most luthiers' instruments). These are massive time saving compared to the traditional inlay method with teflon and so on...for maybe a few dollars more - which simply means that more income can be generated. Yeah...this may sound unromantic, but luthiers are also running businesses.

True - us hobby builders may find that ordering 5 zipflex strips may cost too much compared to some shell strips from the cheapest shell vendor (whoever that is). But then...should efficiency really be our main concern when building guitars?

My hunch is that the pricing is spot on. The small market segment of hobby builders may pay a small premium for the added convenience...just as we have to pay extra for pre-carved bridges, necks,... and for the larger market segment of (semi-)pros, these zipflex strips are real money-makers if you factor in man-hours.

For more free market analyses, call me at 1-800-SO-WHAT
Christian

I agree fully Christian.
I just had a vision of this forum not being a money making machine, where everything surrounds money, thats all.
feels more and more like I am in an exclusive hobby airplane builders forum.

Lars.

Lars,

I'm sure if you had some random stranger walk into the room while you're at work and start loudly whining about how overpaid you are and how you're ripping your bosses/clients off that you might consider it a little bit uncouth?

There has always been a refined and civil way to tell someone that you consider a resource to be overpriced, and it doesn't require insulting anyone's integrity or business acumen: don't buy it. Dictating to someone what their time and work is worth is nothing short of vulgar.

Whether the forum makes money or not is a separate issue. Given that I don't have to pay a cent for the services I get here, I could care less if Lance and Brock are making a mint off this place. And, given how long it took them to build a following and how much work that took, I hope they are!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

when-did-i-mention-brock-and/or-lance-in-this-----

That's where. Yeah you don't mention them by name, but "this forum" is Lance and Brock, and the rest of us, but none of us would be here sharing our thoughts without them.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I love zipflex! Having used it once and having been the recipient of many ohs and ahs, and considering I did it one afternoon, all I can say is wow! Kevin is a great guy letting us do the group buy. That's what communities can do when they work together... Take advantage of corporate volume based pricing. My guess is that some of you first time users will become avid fans after this. We ALL win. Lance, Brock, Kevin, me, you. Isn't THAT the most important thing?

To me posting their prices, and then putting "OUCH!" and stating they are "Way overpriced" is grumbling, and to go even further in my opinion it's downright rude, and no I don't think they would appreciate it nor do I think it's the "perfect place" for such a thing. If you really wanted to give the company feedback I'm pretty sure they have an e-mail address you can mail them. Or better yet a phone number.

I can't speak for Lance and Brock and I have no affiliation with this forum other than being a member here for some time and donation some things occasionally the thread is, obviously, a welcome (back) to the forum thread as is evident by the topic title. If there were a totally separate thread about the product and the merits of it then I think a pricing discussion would be more in line, although I still don't know if it would be something against policy. If it were me I would still think it would be better, and more constructive, to put any concerns or disagreements about the product or the pricing directly to Kevin in private.

To me, and many others, the product is well worth the money. I build guitars professionally and the less time and hassle I can do something and make it come out at or above my standards is well worth a few extra bucks. If someone were to come and tell me "John I think these guitars that you have worked so very hard on and spent well over a decade learning and refining are just way overpriced. You should really lower your prices off because you're just ripping people off. I mean $4,000 for a guitar? -Ouch!!." I'd be offended and perturbed. And better yet if they were to go on a public forum and say all this it would be even more offensive.

Bottom line is if you think the product is not worth the amount of money Kevin is charging don't buy it. It's really that simple.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Well stated, John.!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Oh and in case we forgot.

WELCOME BACK A. S. T. !!

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Tim

John,seriously,you get way to easy offended. Perhaps a testosterone checkup is in order. .
no but seriously, I was to another forum where they are discussing a table saw (Axminster TS-200) the tread has grown quite long now, but it started with alot of people complaining about the "rip fence" being to short !... now as I called Axminster about the saw and about their view on the rip fence, they said that the rip fence had been replaced bu a longer one as they had followed the thread to !!! so due to these individuals talk and complaining about the rip fence, ( but also gave lots of plus points about axminster as a company.the company fixt the problem. for their customers.

What I am getting at is this. if 1 or 2 people call up a company and let them in on what 1 or 2 people think, nothing will happen ! but if its on a forum where it will be in the open it tends to open the companys eyes. as they get aware in another way. some people are quiet about stuff as they dont want to cause problems, but if others raise their voice more will get the guts to.
and hey, I am the customer, so its my darn right to voice my opinion. if I am right or wrong well its franctly not for you to say. I just hope a certain product can be sold to a broader group of people. I can get almost 2 mastergrade german spruce tops for 5 strips at 26 usd each. ! if you think this is a bargain then, well cool for you ! its still expensive.
lastly, if a company has almost a monopol on a product, then its rather difficult to call it market value. !.
again, any company can charge whatever they wish for their products, all ok by me, but its my choice if I feel like saying something about it. isn´t that one of the foundations of that America is based on ?. that you have the right to voice your opinion. (not sure of the right term! in english)
And John, a suggestion for the future as a anterprenour, dont take things so personal ! I am discussing a business, not you or Kevin as individuals.
if you feel offended by someone saying something about your guitars, then by being offended, I guess the person(s) might have said something right.

About Lance and Brock I never mentioned any of the 2. as saying "this forum" does not meen lance and brock, just as if I were to say England I would not nessecerely meen Prince Charles. I ment this forum as a whole.

Lars.

Just because you put a smile after it doesn't mean you didn't just personally insult a respected member of the forum, and after he was extremely respectful toward you in how he voiced his view. Classy.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Lars,

I don't know you from adam, and you don't know me. I'd kindly suggest you keep your personal insults to yourself. It's been kind of hard to tell if you are joking or not these days, and maybe it's one of those "I'm going to act like I'm joking, but I'm really serious" kind of things. If you really dislike how this whole place is about money (your words not mine) then there is a solution for that. In the same vein I need to realize that if there is someone here that is really irritating me by their lack of tact, or decorum then I can just as easily ignore them. So I'm going to take my own advice here and leave this be. I had stopped posting here very much for these sort of reasons, but the rudeness of your posts drew me out. Back to my hiding place.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

And, no matter how you phrase it in your mind, "this forum" implies Lance and Brock, as it is their forum, not yours! We play by their rules, and, yes, policies, which, obviously, you don't seem to care about. We are only guests here, and if you think doing this makes them a bunch of money, you should go open your own forum, then you can make the rules. I probably won't participate.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Like i said--- some of you guys really get offended easy. this might be the reason I wrote that it feels at times I am in an hobby airplane forum. if one cant take anothers point of view on a simple thing as a product from a business. then perhaps there is time to grow some hair on the chest, thats all.
my lord !!.
there was a time when people only got offended when someone shot the bartender. .
dont take things so serious, we are talking about a strip of abalone ! and you guys get offended. give me a break. or should I end this with Dude like filippo always do to the "respected" members.

All written by the non-respected member Lars Stahl.

Waddy. if I were to open a forum my only rule would be that there are no rules as we are adult people (most of us) that can make adult desicions. and since it probably would be a forum surrounding wood, I cant see that there would be so much cursing and such ! so I´ll save the rules for those going to chatrooms. or under 21

Lars:

AST has been around a long time and their stuff costs what it costs. This thread was meant to welcome/highlight them in the OLF community because they have come out with some cool new luthiery products. It's true that decorum, etiquette and tact are in a way superficial. But this does not make them unimportant. Many a forum has imploded under the weight of a few people's insistence on their own personal unfettered form of "free expression". If you have a personal need to make an issue about AST's pricing, you should have started your own thread about it. Those opinions are irrelevent to the intent of this thread. Doing it here amounts to just spamming the forum. By far most people are thankful for AST, and happy to pay their asking prices. I don't think anyone wants to stifle your opinions about it, you just need to be tactful and savvy about when, where and how. I hope you can appreciate this. I have always enjoyed your posts in the past.

AST: Welcome!

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

Well, I'll gladly pay for his products, I think they are first class, can't wait to try the A4 on my next guitar......Welcome AST!!

Cheers,
Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

Indeed.-Welcome-AST.-and-yes-great-product-indeed.-

Lars

I think Kevin should RAISE his prices. We need to keep the cost of all types of shell as high as we can for as long as possible, in order to maintain a healthy market price ratio between basic unadorned instruments and paua/mop/snail/whatev encrusted works of art.

We've got to keep out the riff-raff!

Dave F.

P.S. I've used Kevin's Zipflex on two guitars now and I LOVE the stuff!! I bought a substantial amount of the 0.047" in various colors when it first came out and will be adding some 0.079" to my stash in the group buy. If there wasn't a group buy, I'd gladly be buying it for a couple bucks more on my own.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"