Official Luthiers Forum!

So,

I am going to buy an HVLP gravity feed sprayer and use the target water based lacquer.
When I started looking around they can be as cheap as $40 up to $400.
Im hoping to spend as little as possible cause I just blew $400 on this sander!
I am addicted to buying these machines .

Anyhow is it necessary to spend big bucks on such a small operation?
What do you guys get good results with?

Wes-
I think that sprayers are a lot like most tools: if you are an expert user, you can make most anything work; if a beginner, a good tool will help you learn. That said, plenty of people do good work with cheap guns. It also depends on how tolerant you are of orange peel and other irregularities- if you are going to level-sand anyway, a few bumps don't matter so much.

Even if you are spraying water-based stuff, you will run into some expense with regulators/manifolds/air hose, etc so add that to the bill.

I bought a Walcom ($$) gun for spraying nitro and it works well. I also have a couple of cheap guns, but haven't actually gotten around to using them ....doing the FP 'thang' just now....

Cheers
John

That's a good 6 x 89. Mine's the same 'cept it says Powermatic. Been running for 10 years.

If you don't already own a compressor, that Fuji turbine sounds like a good idea. Todd- thanks for the info.
Avoiding the water in the compressor line problems would be worth a lot.

However...
You don't need a 60 gallon (more to the point- more than 4cu ft/min @80psi) compressor to run a good quality HVLP conversion mini/jamb gun. (A full-size gun is way overkill for guitars, IMO). My Walcom needs 4 cuft/min @40psi max. Unfortunately, the cheaper guns tend to need more air, as I recall.
And if you are spraying water-based finish, I don't think you need worry about dryers (though you do need an oil trap).

Cheers
John

Hey Wes, I have had great success with an Asturo Eco/S connected to an Ingersol Rand 24g compressor. It isn't anywhere near the low end of your price range but is under $400.

Ken

_________________
http://www.casperguitar.com

Even when using an oil-free compressor?
I am asking because #01 will get some coats of KTM9 this weekend...

I use an HVLP from Rockler for around $100 plus an extra bucket. I spray nitro. If you keep the filter clean, it works great. Wet sand cured finish with 400, 600, 800, 1200 paper then Maguires #4 then #7 by hand (no buffing wheel). I have used this method on the last 7 instruments and am very happy.

Michael

By an "oil trap" I think John is referring to the small filter in the line encased in a hanging glass dome? Very technical terminology, I know... Anyway that's the setup I have.

Anyway, I use KTM9, a relatively inexpensive Husky HVLP gun purch'd at Home Depot ($100?) and a Dewalt 4.5 gallon air compressor (which has 100 other uses around the house)
Works for me.

I'm no expert on air systems, but my understanding is that if you have an 'oil-less' compressor (the noisy ones?) , you don't need an oil trap in the line. So just hook 'er up and start spraying!
(No matter which compressor type, or what you are spraying- don't forget to drain the water out of the tank on a regular basis.)
Cheers
John

I bought a WB mini from Spraygun World last year. They recommended it as an alternate to the SATA mini which they couldn't deliver. This unit came with three tip & needle assemblies, so I can spray just about any finish I want with it.
I am very happy with this little gun, but I have no other HVLP experience.
My old gun is a CHEAP ($40.00) siphon type, like the one available from Stew-Mac. It does an equally fine job, but has much higher amount of overspray. I use about a third less finish with the new gun.
In my very humble opinion, you can do a fine job with any decent quality gun. Technique is at least as important as the equipment.
As others have mentioned, clean air is extremely important.
When I set up my spray room, I spent almost as much on new air lines & filters as I did on the gun.

I've used a large (60 gallon) compressor, air filter and regulator mounted at the filter,
oil filter in line and a second regulator mounted on the gun with a disposable drier attached.
Have had good success with the smaller "detail" guns from Sharp. Gravity feed, HVLP. Clean them often and they will last. I use the 1mm tip and get a good pattern though I'm considering ordering the smaller tips to see how they work with sunbursts. The 1mm works but
a smaller orifice might come in handy for some work. Keep plenty of tack cloths around
and use them, keep the filters clean and you can develop a process that is repeatable
and predictable. I hate surprises.

_________________
Bruce Herrmann
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."

Anyone have an opinion of the Earlex Spray Station 3500 HVLP?

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

I have an inline moisture trap, which wasn't sufficient for water-based finishes so I added a disposable filter at the gun.

Ken

_________________
http://www.casperguitar.com

Thank this has all been a big help.

I called Jeff I think it is? At Homestead finishing products and he sold me a gun around $165.00
and some additional tips and things it came out to $215.00 I read good things about his products and that
he knows his stuff. Should be in around 5 days I'll keep you posted.

Anybody have a finnish schedule for the Em6000? I have the sanding sealer as well.
Also do I use the sanding sealer and then fill the pores?
What do you pore fill with?

Wes, I am a big fan of EM6000 and a number of threads have been written about this. I pore fill with Behlens Pore o pac or Target's filler thickened with silica powder. I spray a couple of thin coats of Target's amber shellac on the back and sides as base then build up with EM6000. I don't do any serious leveling until I have put at least a half dozen coats down. I usually end up with 9 to 11 coats on the top and 12 to 15 on the back, sides, and neck. I drop fill at around coat 9 so I can get at least 3 to 6 coats on top of the drop fills. I shoot no more than 3 coats a day and if more than a day passes between shootings, I'll lightly scuff the surface prior to shooting the next round of coats.

The first time I level, I'll use 400 grit paper, but during subsequent levelings, I try to go no coarser than 600 grit. I then sand to 1000 or 1200 grit and buff out with Menzerna's pre polish paste followed by a light to medium cut Menzerna's polish.

Ken

_________________
http://www.casperguitar.com

Sweet thanks for the tips ken!

I saw Ken's guitars at the Blue Fish gathering last week and the finish looks real good.

Fred

_________________
Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Wes, as you get into it and have additional questions, either PM me or post another note on this thread, and I'll add as much detail as you want. Anything from setup to prep, spraying, or buffing.

Fred, thanks! Nothing beats nitro, but this stuff does pretty well for a water based lacquer.

Ken

_________________
http://www.casperguitar.com

Thanks Ken your awesome I do have a few questions.

First I didnt know anything about sterates wile in the build
so im pretty sure much the sanding was done with this type of paper. I was thinking
of just sealing it with zinser shellac sealer?

I have the sanding sealer from target as well should I use this in addition to the the shellac?

Pore filling before or after sealer coats?

And I noticed in a luthier tips dejour video he was using dyed wall joint compound as a pore filler. Any thoughts on that?

And lastly I decided on a matt finnish I have matt EM6000 how does the application process
differ from that of a glossy finnish?

Thanks everyone for your responses

I use one i bought at lowes. A friend who hot rods cars recommended it to me. His regular high priced gun crapped out and he needed one on the spot and bought the lowes one. Works well enough for the minimum use that i use it. Another thing he recommended to me was to use two air filters for moisture. he said it's not overkill at least around here where it can get pretty humid.

Wes you mentioned stearates. So i assume your talking about non clogging sand paper. I have read where some have had finishing problems like orange peel after using this stuff. The trick is to properly clean the finish after using this paper with soapy water or naphtha. I prefer naphtha since it's faster and less messy.

I spoke with Jeff Weiss at TC sometime ago, and he mentioned that sterated paper from a respected source should work fine with TC's water-based coatings. He said the big issues were with the off brand papers coming from overseas. I use Klingspor sterated papers and have had no problems.

You could seal with a de-waxed shellac like Zinsers or if you already have TC's shellac, you can use it. I think the amber shellacs add nice depth for the medium to darker woods. I wouldn't use it on lighter woods unless you want a tinted look. I have used it on tops to make them look a little more aged.

I have tried Behlen's Pore O Pac, Target's High Solids Filler, and CA as pore filler. The Behlen's is pretty good. Target's needs a little help with some silica powder, CA is probably the fastest if you can deal with the fumes. Many on this forum use epoxy, which I haven't tried. I don't know if a silver bullet exists . Pore filling is pretty much a pain regardless how you attack it. Lots of info on the forum, just do a search.

Some of the pore fillers can stain light purflings or can bring dyes out of a rosewood that can stain the purflings. If you are concerned about staining your purflings, you can put a seal coat on the guitar or purflings first.

I have never shot TC's satin or matt finishes. I don't know if they are to be buffed or not. I usually don't get overly concerned about minor imperfections in the finish when spraying as I level and buff. If you skip the buffing, you'd have to make sure you build up a nice level finish off the gun. Good question, but I really can't help out much. If you don't get a reply here, call Jeff at TC and ask him if you can level and buff the satin finishes.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com