Official Luthiers Forum!

Yesterday I somehow managed to accidentally post this on the Off Topic Forum. I'm looking at changing from nitrocellulose to a waterborne finish. After a search I see that several of you use Target EM6000. Of those who use it, what do you use to accentuate the grain, shellac or epoxy? And do you scuff the surface of that base coat with a 220 or 320 grit paper before starting to lay down the waterborne? And, finally, who sprays and who brushes?

Thanks in advance. J

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michael propsom
www.propsomguitars.com

FWIW...
You may wish to consider grafted coatings KTM-SV. It is a urethane while the Target is acrylic (I think). I just finished two guitars with it, and I found it very forgiving in application and that it buffed out very bright and clear without even a hint of the blue haze that is associated with waterborne acrylics. You have to buff gently though as it really doesn't like heat. I porefilled with z-poxy and sealed with zinsser seal coat de-waxed shellac. The only thing I can't comment on is it's durability as everything I've tried it on is pretty much brand new. However others have been using it for years and I have heard no reports about the blistering under sweat that is also associated with acrylics...time will tell...

I like EM6000... just do not wet sand it with water (mineral spirits ok). The darker the wood, the more likely you will see the haze.

Gonna try that KTM-SV next!

Mike

I'm an EM6000 guy. I've used it on 5 guitars and love it. Easy to work with, cures hard, buffs nicely, has a great feel, and seems quite durable. I spray, often using Target's waterbased shellac as a base coat. I sand to 320g to 400g prior to spraying. I typically level the first time after about 6 coats using nothing less than 400g. Subsequent coats are leveled with 600g.

Even with darker woods, I think hazing is a non-issue if the finish is properly applied. I've used it on madagascar rosewood and walnut where the finish is very clear and unblue.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

I used the EM6000 on the Coco guitar I just completed and I think it's great. I was able to wet sand it with great results. The trick to that is I let the finish cure for three weeks, then wet sanded with a 50/50 mix of distilled water and denatured alcohol just to level sand. I then did all the fine finish sanding dry with micromesh up to 12000 then, Meguire's Swirl Remover, followed by Meguires #7 Show Glaze. I've found (at least in my case) that it doesn't like machine buffing as much. I also have yet to see any blue haze or casting that some have spoken of. Overall I'm very pleased with the results. It is also extremely easy to repair as I found out from necessity!

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

So, Bill, is it easy to repair because new EM6000 actually melts into previous coats, so there's no risk of witness lines? I heard somewhere that it's like nitro in that respect.

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michael propsom
www.propsomguitars.com

Precisely!

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I use EM6000 too and I can second what Bill said, its easy to repair. It also brushes well but its a lot harder to level sand if you have to sand out the brush marks. I spray with a cheap touch-up gun. I level sand wet starting with 600 after 5 days but I use mineral spirits. I buff out by hand.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I brush, and I've used it om Z-poxy and Shellac, without scuffing with no issues yet, but they're only a year old. The only time I've seen a hint of blue is on a black back, but I applied the finish way thick. It was my first guitar with it

I've tried wet sanding, but didi the last 2 dry, and will stick with dry. It can be difficult to level after brushing. I tried leveling every 3 coats on the last one I did with 600 grit, and that worked well

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Rob

BTW, I sand dry. I use Klingspor's good stearated paper between coats and don't get much clogging. I find I can see much better what I am doing with dry paper.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Ken, which part number stearated paper do you use from Klingspor? I bought one kind of theirs (stearated) that was terrible. It clogged up very easily.

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michael propsom
www.propsomguitars.com

What does sterated mean?

I have been using EM6000 for about 2 years, and getting very comfortable with it. It is very easy to work with and produces great results. I have not had any issues with the blue haze, and I have used it on rosewoods, maples and pau ferro.

I apply it with a wet foam brush over a z-poxy filler, or a shellac base. After 10 days of curing, I dry sand it starting with p800 grit up to p2000. I then buff it, and use Scratch Doctor swirl remover to finish it off. I am very happy with it.

Pat

J. - The paper is aluminum oxide with zinc stearates. I get it from Klingspor's Woodworkingshop.com. Check part #BX91100SP. They have other types of stearated paper, but this is the good stuff.

Mike - The stearates are a coating added to paper to help them resist clogging. When water-based lacquers started to come out, a big fuss was made about the stearates in sandpapers causing fisheyes in the finish. So I avoided stearated paper until a year ago. I spoke with Jeff Weiss at Target who told me that the stearates used in modern papers by good manufacturers won't cause an issue with his finishes. So the next time I ordered sandpaper, I got some stearated paper. I really like leveling between finish coats with these papers. The 800 and 1000 grits don't clog and the ability to dry sand really allows me to see how much material I am removing and stop when the finish is level. I try to minimize the use of stearated paper prior to pore filling, however. I don't want to get any of the stearates in the pores--I used water based pore filler.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

That is what I was thinking, some kind of coating that some folks claimed could cause problems. Nice to know you are having success with it.

I have about decided that 80% of the finish effort should be in the epoxy stage. Fill every pore, sand to a smooth finish. No dings or dents remain. Then, apply just enough EM6000 so a final wet sand will not cause witness lines. Buff out and your done. This way. no blue haze.

Mike

Mike - I shoot 9 coats on the top and 12 to 15 on the back, sides, and neck. I shoot fairly thin coats and don't do my first leveling until after the 6th coat. I then sand every surface until it is perfectly level. Usually three more coats will finish up the top. I'll then drop fill any pores I didn't catch during pore filling and shoot 3 to 6 more on the back and sides depending on how aggressively I sanded to level the finish. This gives me a perfectly level finish and is thin enough that I have no blue hazing.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

We have a winner!!!!

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.