Official Luthiers Forum!

Matt-
I'm not sure that even with 'slipping the neck' at the back joint, that you will be able to get the geometry where you want it to be.
My guess:Your upper transverse brace , which I assume is pretty substantial and straight, is going to keep the soundboard shape much as it is. Your soundboard has quite a lot of 'dip' from the bridge to the soundhole.

Another option, which isn't much more work than re-doing the binding and back joint, would be to change the fingerboard to a 'semi-elevated' design. Not easy, but none of the good options here are....
-Remove the frets, Remove the fingerboard.
-Make a long tapered wedge (mahogany/Sp. cedar) to go under the fingerboard- do lots of trial fitting.
-Glue wedge to fingerboard. Trim.
-Glue FB assembly to guitar.
-Sand/plane neck to fine-tune the angle
-Re-fret.

See the pics below- one is of a (not perfect, but more typical) neck/fingerboard geometry and the other is of an elevated fingerboard - you can find lots more elevated FB pics if you search.

Good grief, looking at that first picture, I am really off.

John, if this is as good an option as any, it seems to me to be easier than removing the back. Getting the purfling and binding on with my cheapo setup was a huge pain and I want to avoid having to do that again if at all possible.

Yup, that's pretty much it, and no you wouldn't have to remove the fingerboard or frets. The sides will be pushed back a bit to establish the angle (that's normal and not enough to be at all noticable), and regluing the back "locks" them in place and holds the neck at the angle you set with the shim. The upper transverse brace won't be able to counteract to any great extent -- if anything, it will simply pull the fingerboard down at the higher frets, not the entire neck. The back fit will not be changed by very much, but an extra piece of purfling and/or slightly thicker binding should disguise any fit issues when you rebind. In any event, this is your first guitar -- you're trying to make it playable and learn for the next one, not create a thing of great beauty.

Whether you remove the back (my choice for sure) or the fingerboard, you're faced with establishing proper geometry if the guitar is ever to be playable. You're going to have to do some disassembly, which is never pleasant, but go ahead and do whatever you feel most comfortable with.

The tutorial on the frets.com on how to insert a wedge to your fingerboard.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/FBoardWedge/fbwedge.html

I too had a classical guitar that has too much forward neck angle.
And I think planing the bridge and fingerboard nut end might be a simpler solution.

_________________
-----
Sen CL Goh
http://senguitar.blogspot.com

Well, hmm, so at some point along the guitar, the angle has to widen a bit. If this doesn't happen at the neck, body joint, then will it be happening in the top plate around the soundhole?? I'm sorry I don't quite understand hehe. If the angle widens at the joint between the neck and the body, the fingerboard will have to slide slightly in one direction or the other right? If the angle widens at or after the soundhole, then I am basically just bending the top plate in the waist to get the angle correct... is that right?

Anyway, because of the difficulty I had with the binding, and the fact that I would need to buy another set of bent bindings, I'm more inclined to do the raised fingerboard fix, at the same time, that seems a bit more 'ghetto' if ya know what I mean, and I would rather the guitar be correct, which Tim's fix would be closer to doing.

Sigh.

Padma, need any firewood? hehe

Very nice link, thanks.

Matt-
Careful there! Elevated fingerboards are quite the rage in a lot of pretty famous classical guitars with multi $k pricetags!

You would be in fine company!!


John
That link from frets.com is just the thing I was thinking of, BTW. Thanks, Senukan.

Seriously????!!! Oh hmm well I apologize to all raised fingerboardists!!

So, if I got a new fingerboard that is tapered so that its thicker at the sound hole, I mean it would cost a bit, but do you think that would work ok? One of the easiest things I can think of doing. It would basically be like having a raised fingerboard anyway.

I put a 2mm shim at the end of the fingerboard (thanks for the idea Waddy) and placed my straight edge on it, and now the ruler is pointing pretty close to where it should be... I think. See what yall think.



Is that almost close enough? If I take 1.5mm off the saddle slot to get it to 7.5, and either raise the end of the fingerboard by something underneath or by getting a new fingerboard, will I be close enough ya think??

Much better.

You need to sand the bridge bottom more btw, the gaps you have now at the wings should be avoided. You really want it to sit perfectly on the top.

_________________
Build log

I like John's idea. Get some HOG and make a shim.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Why not shim the fretboard?

_________________
Aoibeann

To get a good overview of the geometry of a classical guitar set-up, I recommend taking a look at the sketch in Rik Middleton's book, The Guitar Maker's Workshop. If I recall, it's the only building book that has a clear drawing showing the relationship of the nut, fretboard, 12th fret, top, saddle, & bridge; all the others seem to use words only. Nothing like a good sketch.

Again, thanks for all the input everyone.

It looks like for me the easiest solution will be to just raise that fingerboard at the soundhole end. I guess the question I have now is, is it a better idea to shim it, or get a new one that's a bit thicker? Remember I ended up taking 1.5 mm off the end of the one I have, and to get to where that ruler is in the last picture, all I need is 2mm, although I would feel better about three.

So, if I got a brand new fingerboard that is just 1.5mm thicker than the one I originally got and reverse tapered it by 1.5mm I might be good.

Another question I have is, how high is too high? If the fingerboard gets too thick past the 12th fret I can see that as causing issues.

Rik Middleton's book is excellent, IMO it's the 'updated equivalent' of Irving Sloane's classical building book. Great recommendation, Steve! If you are building a classical, it's a much clearer explanation than Cupiano&Natelson. Nice lo-tech approach, with ideas for home-built tools as well.
Sources:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=rik+middleton&kn=guitar+workshop&sts=t&x=0&y=0
http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Makers-Workshop-Rik-Middleton/dp/186126707X/

As Steve mentions, the diagram explicitly mentions the top doming. He has a very clear text discussion about neck geometry and how to double-check and adjust it before 'locking' the neck into place.

Sorry about the lo-res pic- you need to buy that book!

Cheers
John

Matt-
Whatever gets you to the right geometry will 'work'.
A few thoughts:
1) A reverse tapered, dark-colored (ebony or IRW/other RW board) will look a bit 'unusual', and the color contrast will make it 'stand out'. People are getting quite accustomed to the look of shimmed/elevated fingerboards on classicals.
2) Planing mahogany or spanish cedar is a lot easier than working on a fingerboard, even with sharp tools.
3) A mahogany shim/wedge is cheap enough to be 'disposable', so if you make a mistake it is no big deal to start afresh - not so with a fingerboard.
4) With a wedge, you could use your current fingerboard-either with the taper as-is, or re-worked to constant thickness (which would look better atop a wedge, IMO).

5) If you don't have easy access to material for a wedge, a quick 'call for help' around here (OLF) would probably find something in the mail to you quickly. Finding a good, over-thickness fingerboard might be more difficult.

Cheers
John
PS- Luthiers who have made elevated fingerboard classicals include Sergei deJonge, Greg Byers, Thomas Humphrey, Fritz Mueller, and many others. Until recently, a fairly common question online has been "Where can I find an elevated fingerboard classical under $10k/$5k/$2k? "

John, this is perfect, I think this will be the best solution. I will try to get another fingerboard and save this one for another guitar. And im happy to know that about raised fingerboards. Do you by chance know the reasoning behind the desire for one?

I think one idea is that it improves player access to the upper frets.
Also, if a builder wants to put a lot of dome into a top, it helps to make the geometry work out.....

Cheers
John