Official Luthiers Forum!

There are very few facts when it comes to tone. You should only take my comments for what they are -- an opinion.

Several years ago I was debating switching to stainless steel frets. I was intensely aware of the "they sound tinny" comments and tried to approach the various opinions with an open mind.

Here's my conclusion based on years of work with SS frets on steel string guitars.

1) The frets do not significantly alter the sound. If they have an effect it is very minor. I noticed absolutely NO difference when I switched to SS frets.

2) If they have a big effect, then I believe the installation is to blame. I do believe there are definitely some legitimate claims regarding SS refrets that have made a person's guitar sound worse.

3) I believe every bit of this "tonal inferiority" is coming from guitar techs that either don't want to work with SS frets or don't have the skills to work SS frets. There is no doubt about it -- normal fretwire does not take as much skill to install correctly. You need to have decent fretting chops to succeed with SS frets.

4) No offense to Ed Roman -- but I approach his comments with a MASSIVE amount of skepticism -- much the same way I would approach a conversation with a used car salesman.

Hi Mark, just to clarify a few things.

Normal fretwire is the hardness it is because of workability reasons. It was made as hard as possible but still easy enough to cut, level, crown, and polish. Bone is used for nuts and saddles because of its workability as well. Who would want to make a saddle out of stainless steel or even brass? -- way to much work and also would be too heavy. The saddle has a very different role in a guitar than either the nut or frets. Bone is lightweight, has great workability, and is good at sound transmission -- perfect for saddles.

From a pure mechanical perspective, I just can't see how the frets would effect the tone. Saddle Material / Bridge Wood / Strings -- these are much greater contributors to tone.

Okay, that's it for me regarding this thread. Best of luck to the OP in his decision.

Chris...To me, feel seems to be enhanced based upon the smoothness and lower coefficient of friction of the polished SS frets. My hand and fingers seem to move better over the frets. I've also heard others describe this similarly and is purely subjective.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I've done a few guitars of late with stainless frets.

And some with Evo and some with nickel silver.

There's about as much difference in sound as there is between Titebond and LMI white.

_________________

------------------------------------------------------
Bob Connor
Geelong, Australia

I've seen several discussions about SS frets and the perceived tone. It's my understanding that Grumpy uses SS frets (maybe he'll chime in). I've heard two of his guitars and they sure don't sound tinny. I've used EVO a few times and it sounds just fine even though it is about in the middle between nickel silver and stainless in hardness. I'm going to try the SS frets and make up my own mind.

Hesh, I used to play a Parker Fly too. Nice playing Ax

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

[quote="SimonF"]Who would want to make a saddle out of stainless steel or even brass? -- way to much work and also would be too heavy. quote]

I have not made any saddles out of stainless but, I have used brass. So I guess to answer your question, I would.

"Way to much work?" It doesn't seem to be to me. But then again I am highly skilled at working with the stuff. So I guess it would depend on a persons level of expertivness on what the difficulty factor would be of working with the stuff.

"To heavy?" How did you conclude that? How much heavier are your brass saddles then, say bone? And why did they not work? I discuss with some of my clients the option of using brass parts here or there. I certainly would not want one of my clients, or a prospective client, to get the wrong impression that they should not use brass because it is to heavy. The experience that I have had with brass saddles is, they will work in some situations, but not in others. I will share some of my findings with you if you would like.

But in the mean time, here are some pics.

Brass saddle.





DeExplora saddle.





Gibson SG nut. Home made.





The V2 came with a brass nut from the factory. If they can do it, anyone should be able to.





One of the first brass nuts that I made.







Brass roller saddles on a Kayler.





Glen

Steve...I've both heard and played SS fretted Proulx guitars. Tone and volume up the wazoo without a hint of tin!! That's why I included the link in my earlier post. He chimed in then to dispel some irrational statements. His 4+ year history on SS frets went a long way in convincing me to give it a try. As usual, he has real data instead of mindless pontification. Bottom line...4+ years of real data vs. an article by a no-acoustic-data Ed Roman. You be the judge.

Some will consider this harsh but we really owe it to ourselves to get it right in these threads. We wouldn't want the archives to show that a discussion was concluded with erroneous information. In addition to builders following this forum, potential buyers are also following. Imagine what a client might think if a builder proposed SS frets and he found a thread that concluded that they sounded tinny.

Let's keep it real.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Filippo,
Without knowing this person I find your comment "ridiculous" this gut is an incredible guitar player and plays a lot to wear the frets out this quick. I only asked a question about SS fret wear not your unwelcome opinion

its funny how some will find a way to turn every post negative

Jeff

JJ, not harsh at all. I agree that we need to keep it real and get it right.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I've used brass alot on nuts and saddles and liked the results as well. But would not think stainless would give the same results as it is too hard of a material and would have a different effect on tone because of that.

SS frets do have a loyal and seemingly growing following however regardless of any efforts to .... keep it real.... people are going to have their own opinions, one way or the other, and as we all know folks tend to purchase or not... based on personal preferences and opinion.

If you are going to offer a SS option or exclusively SS frets on your own instruments it behooves you to not only expose yourself to what the prospective client objections may be but to become rather skilled at dealing with these objections in real time - this is the essence of selling... And like it or not if your participation here, on the OLF, is somehow guided even at times by a belief that prospective clients lurk here learning all that you may regarding the opinions of folks, justifiable or not, is important.

Here is a link to another forum, Seymor Duncan I believe. As you read the posts you will see that many folks appreciate SS frets and others don't and why... You will also notice a post by one of my favorite people who has walked the walk with SS before and is a fan of them. He dispels the myths one-by-one but also recognizes and addresses the personal opinions as being just as valid to address as any assertion based on empirical data.

My point is that you will find no facts to support why one person may hate something and another person will love it - this is the nature of personal opinions. As such these opinions such as my buddy's Mark's above are as real to them as a heart attack. In some cases all of the data in the world is not going to make someone believe that a sunbursted guitar will sound as good as a natural guitar... or that SS frets do not change tone (unless you don't know how to install them...).

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=189397

Great post by David Collins, as usual. It was a reminder as to how much we miss his presence here. More importantly, it would be great to have him chime in specifically about his experience with SS and acoustic guitars. The electric guitar opinions, while valid in their own right, miss the point.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

When I can figure out how to refret a guitar as quickly as I restring a guitar...........

Gimme Stainless Steel on my next one, please.

HE

Welcome, Howard! Nice to have a distinguished player chime in. So, any pearls of wisdom from your perspective?

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I have used SS frets and never noticed any difference in tone. They are more work to install properly but the "slippery" feel and resistance to wear is worth it, I think.

That said, my favorite fretwire these days is the EVO wire that LMI sells. Its hardness and wear resistance is between regular wire and stainless wire. You get the benefit of fewer refrets and it's much easier to work with than stainless. It is also has a slight gold color to it which I think looks really nice on guitars with gold plated hardware.

Mark

Hi JJ,
I'll give $1000 to the first player who can tell, blindfolded, which guitars have SS and which ones do not, simply by listening.

Pure and utter nonsense.

This is exactly why someone will always make a good living as a Procto-Entomologist.

I'm having David Flammang make an L-00 style 12 string (maple and red spruce) for me and I've spec'd SS frets this time. The L-40 he made for me is in need of a grind and polish, but I don't like to have the frets any lower than when they started out, so it's frustrating for me being that I love really large wire.

I figure that SS will last longer, and I like worn strings anyway, so it sounds like a win-win to me if the frets will kill the strings sooner than vice versa:-)

Best regards,
Howard

OMG...that's a new one!!!

I sure hope you don't have a copyright on that phrase, because I will use it in place of the less advanced but more universally understood equivalent to improve my writing skills. The spoken word still demands the original, however.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Hi JJ,
Thank you so much for giving credit where it's due.

I take Paypal.

HE

SS frets make a lot of sense to me. Too bad they require more cost/effort to install.