Official Luthiers Forum!

This is what it comes down to, whose morality and what circumstance???...no one currently judging Kevin Gallagher from the perspective of their own morality can possibly know Kevin Gallagher's circumstance. Therefore they are not discussing morality but rather persecuting this man without good reason. I for one would rather trust a man who in 'desperation' could be swayed to be foolish enough to seek resolution by defrauding an insurance company than I would a man who would put down another with no compassion or understanding of his position. To be so uncompromising is harsh and weak, weak because one who does so does not need to face the horrible truth that they are probably wrong in the eyes of the very one upon whose message they used as foundation to build the moralistic pedestal from which they now preach and scorn without compassion.

You had a piddling business go bust Stuart and now you have been in this mans shoes?? Ohhh please!! Judging from your response in this thread I think life may yet have more in store for you than you currently understand of harsh times, and quite frankly, I reckon it's a lesson that will serve you well.

Paul, sorry for the news and your pain. My best wishes for you recovery.

And I can't help but agree with you, surely we should wait until we hear all the facts?

And even then, are we going to be so judgemental, both of the person concerned and each other?

Regards to all.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Guys. I just checkt Zlurgh info. he´s 18 years old !! So I guess he simple lack experiance ! .
Zlurhg-just an advice. ( aimed at myself to at times ) Dont speak of things you have no knowledge of as if you do. 18 years old and writing about right and wrong of someone way older than you. !! just strange to me. when I was 18 I did totally different things than preach in forum with a lot of wierdos like me and the rest of us woodsniffers. now, go flirt with some ladies instead young man and come back in a couple of years with a headache and some experiance.

Lars

What we must find out is the truth . Many of us donated cash to help Kevin , and at this point all we need to know is the truth. I had a friend that had Pancreatic cancer and it took him. What I did learn from that , is it did change my friend mentally . Maybe it is the same situation with Kevin.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

One thing that I would like to remind folk of is that we are not just talking about one person here as his wife Paula is also involved, and I for one do not want to add to her suffering.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Thanks for that Lars, it explains much and your advice to Stuart is right on the money.

Cheers

Kim

Well said my friend.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Guys can we show some restraint here. No sense getting on each others nerves here. Sit back, count to 10 and wait for the
report from Sam. None of us here knows the truth. Let's wait for the facts.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Many of us, including Kevin, are here in the USA. The "presumption of innocence" is supposed to be real; not, "nudge, nudge, wink,wink." And, no matter what, I won't regret leaping to the breach. We help when we can and rest in the knowledge that we have tried to help another suffering human. And, yes, this forum carries a banner of selfless committment to humanity; being proud of that is not "hubris." The spirit of generosity has its own reward, no matter the success of the endeavor. My loyal affection to all and thanks to Hank for unfurling that flag.Mike T.

Many of us, including Kevin, are here in the USA. The "presumption of innocence" is supposed to be real; not, "nudge, nudge, wink,wink." And, no matter what, I won't regret leaping to the breach. We help when we can and rest in the knowledge that we have tried to help another suffering human. And, yes, this forum carries a banner of selfless committment to humanity; being proud of that is not "hubris." The spirit of generosity has its own reward, no matter the success of the endeavor. My loyal affection to all and thanks to Hank for unfurling that flag.Mike T.

Kim I think your discernment re Kevin's present situation is absolutly correct. I was thinking exactly the same thing.



Zlurgh I think there is a world of difference between telling the truth and speaking the truth in love.

I do agree with the principal of accountability. I think we must be able to acknowledge the truth about ourselves and our situation regardless of how painful that might be . I trust Kevin is able to do that and move forward.

Like others I also appreciate very much Kevin's generosity in sharing his vast knowledge of guitar building in many posts on the forum. Thanks Kevin. Get well soon.

Regards
Craig Szabadics.

I just read some of Zlurgh's posts on the other thread (sticky) and I have to say for 18 years old, he is quite wise in his thinking. I would not discount someone because they are 18 (unless it was me, since at 18, I had zero wisdom and my history proves it).

Zlurgh, post away.

Mike

I'm 52 and totally agree with Zlurgh so don't attack him because he's 18. Discounting someone's position simply because of his age is simply a form of bigotry -- no difference than discounting someone's position because he's a minority.

Gallagher's greatest possible "sin" in my mind (and I use that in the non-religious sense) is if he truly doesn't have cancer. If you go re-read his and his wife's posts, there was always an implicit request for money from people on this and the other forums. We don't have transportation because of the wreck, we don't know how we will pay to stay for treatment, etc., etc., etc. Trying to de-fraud "friends" goes to someone's core moral fiber. I hope he doesn't have pancreatic cancer as my father died from that but if he doesn't, there is no excuse for his actions.

Many people justify in their minds cheating the IRS and screwing insurance and other large corporations. My mother always said "stealing is stealing" and that the 10 Commandments do not have exceptions for who you steal from. Although he seems to have admitted having done so, nevertheless, we should wait for all of the facts to come out or an explanation from him.

Early in this thread I used the word "obscene". What I was referring to was put very well by Mr Stallings above. Not what happened with the insurance companies. I think I understand how some of you might have taken that now, and my appologies.

What I do not get is if Kevin really has cancer (and I REALLY hope he does not, especially pancreatic cancer), then why does not someone in the know tell us? Yeah, I know, we will find out in about a week or so. But if he does, then all of this is moot, and we can get back to helping a brother in need. His other problems are his and none of our concern as long as it does not affect us as a community. Ultimately, that is what this discussion is all about.

Mike

In an attempt to help get this thread back in line with the original direction of the discussion, the following is an excerpt from another forum regarding this subject. I will not disclose who the person was that posted it or the forum it is in for the sake of honoring the statement provided by that person in the post. Some here may recognize who and where but I request that you don't reveal it if you know. Thanks!

All I can say at the moment is that (as best we can confirm today)
1. the cancer is real
2. the auto accident was real
3. the legal issues are, sadly, also real

As to the how, when and why for number 3, we hope to be able to answer those questions after..............next week. Whatever the outcome, I promise to give you all as concise a report as possible. ............... I will put off further discussion until all the facts are confirmed................with Kevin and his family.

Kevin and Paula have enough stress on them as is evident publicly. I know that if it were me, it would add a far greater degree of discomfort and stress to my situation to read conversations about me in a public forum that have gone in the way this one has. Everyone has their own thoughts, opinions, and choice as to how they will respond to my post here. But I for one, would really like to see things pipe down until further more solid, non speculative news is available. All of us are affected by this in one form or another, and all of us want to know the facts, so as for me, this is my final post on this subject until the facts are presented. I still choose to think the best without condoning any bad decisions of another. It is difficult enough for me to judge myself and my own actions righteously every day, let alone those of someone else. Just my thoughts, take it for what you will because we each have our own thoughts and tongues to control!

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Zlurgh is not 18 - his profile says that - but a quick google search will show you - including a picture - but I will let Zlurgh post that ...

get off his back - he is entitled to an opinion as everyone else is.



No I have been trying to stay out of all this - but I watch the thread. I would be easier if when a resolution is posted could someone make it it's own thread with a title like "The Resolution to the Kevin Case" etc... that way I won't have to go through so many pages.







should read -

_________________
It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

Lars, friend...

Its not wise to judge a person by their age, as it is no measure of maturity (only physical).
I am 19 and have been to hell and back more than once in my life, so I am proof you also cannot discount the experience of a young person simply because they are young.
I would also be more than glad to join you in a debate upon issues of morality, ever come the chance...

Did not want to poke my nose in on this, but oh well. Sad stuff, all I can say is that it would be most wise to withhold judgement until the facts are known, but it has been said before...

There's no tongue-in-cheek emoticon . I was raised (cafeteria) Catholic, actually. I figure with an infinite lifetime (of the soul) and non-zero chance of being forgiven over time (since everything else is forgivable), then they all converge to forgiven in finite time. Finite time is infinitesimal relative to infinite time, so souls end up spending either an infinitesimal amount or their entire existence as sinners.

I'm still working on the angels on a pin head thing

So far as Stuart goes (Zlurgh), he's not 18. Maybe he should have put the tongue-in-cheek icon next to the age column, or maybe he never filled it out at all and 18 is the default. Regardless, as someone else said, age is a poor indicator of wisdom. Either way, I think his point is fair. To say that no-one can be held accountable for their crimes marginalizes the goodness and strength of every person who has held fast to being righteous, regardless of their circumstances. There is no generosity without greed, and there is no altruism without selfishness.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

.

The Talking Stick

Yup this forum is sorta like the Talking Stick... you know the stick that is passed around the circle and when it's in your hands, its your turn to talk.

Well it seems like this topic is really gonna bring our another incarnation of the beast as we each take turns wielding the stick and shooting our mouth off.

Now this topic, this situation of morals, values and dogma can be likened to that stick.

The following questions will finally don on us...
"Which end of the stick you wielding? The clean end or the dirty end?"
And
"Which end is which" and "Does it matter"
So after all our emotions have been aired and the beast goes back to sleep
"Does any of it really matter?"
I mean like, we know we cant be taken the coin with us past them pearly white gates, but dudes, I believe the Talking Stick with its clean and dirty end ain't allowed in ether.

Dance demons dance, you liberation is a hand.





blessings as usual
the
Padma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Comparing morality to stick reveals a bias that views morality as a weapon...to be wielded or feared.

But morality can also be viewed as an anchor, a guide, an objective standard...

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Exactly my point.

The view points (anchor, a guide, an objective standard) all imply goal orientated dualistic thinking.

Is it possible to find that third point in our thinking beyond the illusion of the extremes?





Padma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

deleted

folks ---

can we please dial back the bickering. Clearly there are differing points of view here. Maybe it is best just agree to disagree. Nobody is running for congress, we don't need to campaign that hard.

Also, please keep the religion to a minimum ok? Our forum has been well served by 3 basic rules, clean language, no religion, no politics. Here too there are strong opinions and little chance of swaying someone off of something they believe strongly in. I suggest we try to find the common ground rather than our point of diffferences.

I don't hear anyone condoning what happened, but there are varying POVs about it.

Please, let's not let this end in a big squabble. This is a very unfortunate incident and having this post go down in flames won't help the situation at all.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Of course that is true. But what does it mean to you to "speak the truth in love" in this context? Paul was talking about growing up when he said it.

It is likely that without a criminal record, and due to his cancer, he will be parolled without serving time but I don't know that and I can't predict the outcome of this. I hope this is the case but $350K is a rather large sum of money. The truth is; Kevin's actions may well result in him being fully seperated from his family and thus incapable of doing anything for them. He could spend a great deal of time fighting cancer...alone in jail, which is a tragedy made more poignant and a pain made more acute by the depth of the love that surrounds him.

Integrity is not something a man can fully possess. It is only a goal...an ideal that he can strive for. You can't judge man by what he does in a true crisis because many of us don't think well on our feet. You CAN judge people by their stated ideals and by their habitual behavior because these things reveal true character. I have a problem with this particular crime because it required deliberation and time to construct. Much time would be required to obtain photos, make insurance claims, fill out forms. There would be a lot of time to contemplate guilt, risk, family, consequences....ect. There's a lot more to discover about this.

Love? I do know that love and judgement don't often co-exist but neither are they mutually exclusive. In this case, it seems he owes a full explanation of his actions to his friends. If I was his friend, or wanted his friendship I'd have this expectation. I believe what Kevin Gallagher does next will say much about him.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

It's an interesting point. Propose that third point and let us see how practical you can be.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic