Official Luthiers Forum!

Lars, u asked if it was the biggest sin a Christian could commit. I answered u. Nobody is judging Kevin so far. Hank, nobody is bashing Kevin. It all got kind of tangled when L&B announced the password thing. Lars, Padma, Hank, you can say what u want, but everybody in here is doing a fine job of being more than understanding. I have not yet read past page 5, so I do not know what else has been said.

I will say however, judging or bashing me or anybody else for what has been said here is just as bad. We most certainly ought to be able to talk about it without getting emotional.

I repeat, nobody is bashing or judging Kevin.

We can't *see* the passwords or we would have just set it back.. and we can't PM him because he couldn't log in to see it, right?

Please don't make this worse by trying to find conspiracy where none exists. I think Lance has already been in contact with them and have them back in business.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thank you for clarification , that was the point I was holding forth on.


blessings
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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There's only one unforgivable sin: disbelief, so that's the big one; technically I guess a Christian, by definition, couldn't commit it. You can get a buy on all the other ones, eventually, which puts them on level ground from a mathematical perspective.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Gee thanks Bob, I didn't know that ..."You can get a buy on all the other ones"

Is that sorta like the indulgences the catholic church use to sell?

By any chance do you got a rate card or price list on the various sins?

I always thought 10% off the top and in to the poor box wood take care of things.

Anyways, me just wondering, cuz back in 1982 I was...um never mind. But I sure wood be interesting in the various rates and all...you know ...to see just what I can afford to um ....buy me self off the hook for.




blessings

Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Well...I'm not emotional.

I'm trying to imagine myself resorting to fraud, lying, and allowing false statements to remain uncorrected under the duress of extreme financial pressure...and all this as a pastor of my own church. By his own admission Mr. Gallagher attempted to steal hundreds of thousands of dollars from an insurance company and will now stand trial for seven counts of insurance fraud as a result. Sorry guys, that's not something I'll ever do...or ever CONSIDER doing. Nor would I support someone who would, except to encourage them to fully expose their character defects in an attempt to grow and improve.

I didn't know Kevin ahead of this issue so I have no friendship or honor to defend. But even Kevin's closest friend ought to have some judgement for him if he could conceive such a plan and then overpower his own conscience (don't forget he's a pastor) to the point of carrying it out. Personally, when I consider my own definition of friendship, it frightens me to imagine overlooking, in a friend, the corrupt character that would be required to commit this level of crime. Loyalty is also an attribute of a good friend but loyalty, given in response to a full betrayal of virtue, is misguided at best and enabling at worst. Kevin betrayed a LOT of people with this act...it would appear.

Forgive him? Sure...if he's contrite about the matter. But there is no disputing his attempt to steal hundreds of thousands of dollars, which means the ball is in HIS court to act to justify emotional OR monetary support from anyone.

Ironically, I hope he is lying about having cancer. In any case, I wish him the best on that front.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Paul, I wish u the best in your walk with this awful disease. Thank you for sharing ur perspective.

Mike

I am no christian, or any other denomination or faction for that matter, maybe it has something to do with fact that I just don't feel the need for a book or anyone else to tell me the basics, like I should not judge anyone until i stand right in their circumstance. It's just something you should try not to do if you are ever to ask for understanding yourself and not find yourself the hypocrite. Those who stand in judgment of Kevin Gallagher now should be careful, life has it's own way of showing you how you are better served attending to your own short comings rather than examining those of others, cause when you spend to much time doing that, you may just miss what is coming your way.

The man is in trouble, BIG trouble, give him your understanding. He is essentially good from what I am told, how bad the circumstance must have been for him to fall so hard. Empathy is all this requires and if you can't find that, don't expect it when your life's poop hits the fan.

Cheers

Kim

Sorry I fail to see the logic in many of these posts. As has been stated many times no one is judging Kevin or making attempts to elevate themselves on pedestals of righteousness. You can be empathetic to a person and his/her situation but that empathy shouldn't cloud your ability to see when that person has done something wrong. Murderers can be forgiven by family members of their victims when they show contrition but all the forgiveness in the world doesn't change the fact that murder is wrong. If the allegations being brought forth are true, then Kevin did something wrong. That's fact. Pure and simple. Would we act the same way given the same circumstances? Quite possibly...and it would still be wrong even if we would act the same way. I don't think it is right to blame people for feeling the way they do when a certain level of trust has been breeched. I'm empathetic to Kevin if he really has cancer and this is what drove him to his actions. And even if he doesn't have cancer, I'm empathetic to him as a fellow sinner recognizing that we all have moments of weaknesses. Whichever one of these turns out to be the case, I'm not going to deny the fact that I feel disappointed and, to some degree, let down.

What I will say is that I'm truly truly empathetic to Hank, Sam, Lance, and all the folks who bid high for a good cause. I will wait for Hank's report back before drawing any sorts of conclusions.

Charlton

Paul. I am truly sorry to hear about your condition ! I am praying for my. .

Sincerely Lars.

If that is the case, then it should be the law who sits in judgment and the wronged insurance companies with the option to forgive, (fat chance) As far as I can tell, no one on this forum or any other has been mislead or deceived in anyway whatsoever. The man has cancer from which he may very well die for goodness sake, and even if he doesn't, he will have lost his pride, his home, his family and his freedom over this. The truth of the matter is that this poor desperate fellow was probably so stressed over his home troubles, his financial situation and the guilt he carried for his deception of the insurers, it open him to this disease in the first place. Maybe I see too much in this topic but there does appear to be undertones of some who seem happy to tar this poor mans life with a brush coated on the outside by one bad mistake made in desperate times that had nothing whatsoever to do with anyone here. Sorry, but I see no empathy in that at all, it's just old woman's talk and we should wait for the facts from Hank before any suggestions are made that would make this blokes life even more difficult than it already is.

Oh, don't go worrying about me. My cancer is one of the easy ones to deal with, or so they assure me, hurts a lot but rarely lethal.

Worry about Kevin. He's always come across to me as a stand up guy, makes a mean axe too. He must be hurting right now (physically and in his heart) and needs our support, not our condemnation based on few facts - isn't this what 'community' means? The opposite of that would be 'Mob'.

In Australia, this sort of situation is considered to be the place where you find out who your mates are. This is always a valuable exercise - except for the police thing.

You can offer understanding to those who lie and steal, Kim. That's your right. I just don't know what it is exactly that you understand. Would YOU lie and steal to alleviate YOUR financial crisis? It's not hypocrisy to know yourself, know you wouldn't commit grand larceny, and then say you wouldn't do it. It's a simple observation for most of us. But to put a fine point on it...I've stood in Kevin's shoes myself. I had a failed business prior to my last one. That experience, however, did NOT inform my sense of morality. I knew right and wrong long before I was in financial crisis.

A person that commits fraud is decidely duplicitous. This challenges the essence of trust...which is required in an effective pastoral relationship. A LACK of judgement in this case devalues virtue, even the virtues in Kevin that people were originally attracted to. A LACK of judgement at a critical point often protracts and delays contrition.

Love is often simply a matter of telling the truth. Hold him accountable, Kim. It's hard to grow up and stand on your own feet without accountabilty. The trick is to get older and wiser....not just older.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

What a crock.

Walk a mile in the guy's boots then come back and tell us how wonderful and virtuous you are. Not in your own well worn boots, but in his boots.

You're supposed to speak from the orifice at the other end of your body pal. Otherwise save it for the pulpit.

Nothing to add, Paul summed it perfectly.

Cheers

Kim

Can't we all just "save it" until the matters clears? Thanks...

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Build log

Well sir.....your position trivializes theft and fraud....unless you'd like to further illuminate our understanding of these crimes.

So far, I believe I've only spoken to those admissions made by Kevin himself....that he misrepresented his own property in order to steal over quarter of a million dollars from an insurance company. Are we approaching the point where we need to denigrate those who speak frankly about character? Sometimes I think we are long past it.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

It is an interesting moral code that prohibits discussion of morality.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

I don't trivialize nothing sport. But if one of my kids were sick and needed urgent medical treatment and I didn't have the cash, then the rules would change - real fast. And I could give a S*** about how I were judged by the likes of you. That goes for several situations that may crop up.

You people who stand in the pulpit are supposed to be the first to forgive - or haven't you read that bible you seem to be thumping?

Suppose you can't read it with your head buried so far up your colon.

Perhaps I should send you one of those night light things?

Morality? Moral code? I haven't prohibited anything. I just think that you are an opinionated d**kweed.

What I can't stand is people who impose their own "morality" on the rest of us.

Your country (and ours) have declared war on people who would impose their moral code onto our society, why should I have to be exposed to yours?

You don't have to be exposed to my posts. No one forces you to read them.

You clearly have a lot on your plate there, Paul.

But things are becoming a little clearer to me.....maybe. Tell me; on a list of 1 -10 where 1 is stealing a paper clip from the office and 10 is stealing a kidney from the Pope......about where does stealing $1/4 million+ from an insurance company rate?

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Anyways, this is starting to get boring.

I guess it won't be long before Lance or Brock delete the whole thread.

All I'm saying is give Kevin a break, he's going through hard times, and I understand hard times.

Time to be his mate now, not his accuser.

This is what it comes down to, whose morality and what circumstance???...no one currently judging Kevin Gallagher from the perspective of their own morality can possibly know Kevin Gallagher's circumstance. Therefore they are not discussing morality but rather persecuting this man without good reason. I for one would rather trust a man who in 'desperation' could be swayed to be foolish enough to seek resolution by defrauding an insurance company than I would a man who would put down another with no compassion or understanding of his position. To be so uncompromising is harsh and weak, weak because one who does so does not need to face the horrible truth that they are probably wrong in the eyes of the very one upon whose message they used as foundation to build the moralistic pedestal from which they now preach and scorn without compassion.

You had a piddling business go bust Stuart and now you have been in this mans shoes?? Ohhh please!! Judging from your response in this thread I think life may yet have more in store for you than you currently understand of harsh times, and quite frankly, I reckon it's a lesson that will serve you well.

Paul, sorry for the news and your pain. My best wishes for you recovery.

And I can't help but agree with you, surely we should wait until we hear all the facts?

And even then, are we going to be so judgemental, both of the person concerned and each other?

Regards to all.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Guys. I just checkt Zlurgh info. he´s 18 years old !! So I guess he simple lack experiance ! .
Zlurhg-just an advice. ( aimed at myself to at times ) Dont speak of things you have no knowledge of as if you do. 18 years old and writing about right and wrong of someone way older than you. !! just strange to me. when I was 18 I did totally different things than preach in forum with a lot of wierdos like me and the rest of us woodsniffers. now, go flirt with some ladies instead young man and come back in a couple of years with a headache and some experiance.

Lars