Official Luthiers Forum!

Within the last 30 minutes Lance and I decided to change Kevin's password until we could assess the level of change he has over old posts etc. We now have a handle on this and if Kevin or Paula wants in please contact either Lance or I and we will help you reset your password.

We want to give them the opportunity to respond, but we felt that it is important to keep the record of what has transpired in tact.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Isn´t there something in America called inocent until proven in a court of law ? ! in the newspaper it says accused of and "probable cause" ! .

Lars

YO,

Brock, Lance

Changing Kevin's password may be read as excommunication. Punishment.

Although your reason is given here, I was under the impression that shortly after something is posted, it can not be edited.

Furthermore I personally think that your RE-actions (although somewhat rationalized) really have no buisness being aired publicly on the forum.

Is your forum. Do as thou wilt, however in light of the situation the Gallagars are in, a bit of tack, respect and discretion would have been in order here don't you think?

Dudes,
a direct PM / email or phone call to the Gallaghers would have dealt with your concerns over this sites security.

Simply put....IMNSHO... WAY OVER THE TOP DUDES!


OH well, we are all just chickens scratching around on this planet.


blessings

Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Lars, I don't think there is anything implied of anyone's guilt in the post by Lance and Brock.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Not at all, we are not implying guilt. As I said earlier, we are not quite sure what to make of this.

We have just had some bad experiences with edits made to sensitive topics and we wanted to take every precaution that this was not going to happen here. We had no reason to think it would, but we wanted to confirm that. This is really just an admin thing... we are not passing judgment on Kevin. Lance and I are both troubled and concerned for him.

We are happy to help them get their password reset. Nobody has been excommunicated.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Easy now. Lance and Brock are acting in a totally responsible manner. Not sure we all need to know the details, but this forum could face (or become involved in) some legal issues and protecting records is a key concern. If you will slow down and think about it for a moment, it should make more sense to you. Nuff said.

Mike

Strange scenario.

From a glance as a relatively new member only privy to the situation this appears to be a desperate guy. If he has inoperable pancreatic cancer, a freakin' insurance fraud suit is the least of his worries. Not to justify fraud, but I have little sympathy for insurance companies to begin with.

While a few answers are surely in order, I'd like to point one thing out. Gear was stolen from a church....It's not like the guy was arrested for DUI with an 8 ball of crack and a couple of hookers.

Clearly he is need of money and people make mistakes. I've made plenty myself, more than I care to admit actually. Personally, I think it's a bit early to be hanging the guy out to dry. Even if he is guilty of fraud, what does that prove outside of the fact that the guy is desperate for one reason or another?

What Mike said!

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Oh I see..."happy to help them get their password reset" hmmm...

then why didn't you just PM or email them a new password.

Simple eh.





Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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In CA, my understanding is that Lance and Brock would have a legal obligation to make reasonable efforts to mitigate future damages to both their business and all parties involved. I'm sure there are similar rulings in MI and PA.

Nobody is "hanging" Kevin out to dry. In fact, this community has shown amazing restraint. And because it is a community, restraint is the right thing. Its really quite simple. Anything that has been posted here with regard to this issue must be protected.

James with all due respect. I might be a bankrobber for all you know. so what legal aspects would that do to a forum talking about building and repairing guitars. there is no such law "universal" that could ever be bad for this forum as long as we are not talking about how to hit the bank so to speak.

If you read about me in the papers involving something that has nothing to do with building guitars, then would my password get a reset check to ?
I feel there is a bit to much "golfer" tendancy happening.

Whatever another human being is doing is his or her business alone dont you all think. Now, if anyone suspect Kevin for faul play to the money some of you might have sent him and his family, then Like the Padma Said why dont you call him and simply ask. !!

Lars

Well, this forum has been, amongst others, a platform to raise money. So I think it's appropriate what has been done so far.



Best regards,


Edzard

Lars, if, and ONLY if this forum was used to get money & services based on deciet, then there is a problem. Had the issue been simply about what happened to Kevin with the insurance thing, there would be no issue here.

But that is not the case. What is unkown at this point is if the cancer thing is real. That is why so many people donated money, materials for sale, and time. If the cancer issue is not real, then there is a fraud issue. In the US, that is a BIG deal. If the cancer issue is real, then let your conscience be your guide. Here is where it gets sticky. Kevin was most definitely convicted of insurance fraud. There are newspaper articles and legal affidavits. Now, does this translate into a trust issue with OLF? I say it does. That is not a conviction, its just common sense considering all that has transpired.

So, by resetting the password, L&B have insurred that Kevin has just certain specific edit rights, prolly the same as most of us. Its just a precaution. And, L&B have said he can get that password and log back in at any time. I see no issue here.

Mike

I will make no pretensions of being an attorney or understanding evidence. I won't comment further than this, either, because there's significantly more important discussion to be had around this situation. I'm simply noting that the California Supreme Court has made clear that “[a] person injured by the wrongful act of another is bound, however, to exercise reasonable care and diligence to avoid loss or minimize the resulting damages and cannot recover for losses which might have been prevented by reasonable efforts and expenditures on his part.” (Valencia v. Shell Oil Co. (1944) 23 Cal.2d 840, 844 [147 P.2d 558].), and that I'm sure there are similar rulings that could effect Kevin and the forum. By maintaining that records not be altered, Lance and Brock are simply making reasonable efforts to mitigate further damages. This is not a moral move on their part, simply one of preventing further legal damages either party could face.

Well James, then maby I to am a risk factor here as my record is not clean either. when I was 18 I commited freud by stealing my own car stereo claiming it had been stolen, so I could get me another. when I was 16 me and some "bad hangouts" at that time hotwired a Kawazaki 1000. and also drove it WAY over the speedlimit the list goes on. allthough I was young and stupid ! BUT It doesnt meen I would lie to you guys about me having cancer. !! Lets just wait and see what Kevin says himself instead of judging him ofr something he most likely is not guilty of. We as humans are way to fast in putting judgement over people. Also, isn´t that one of the biggest sins accordingly to christianity. "you shall not judge others" ( or perhaps thats mine )

Lars

Lars, did you read the police affidavit? Kevin admitted to lying to both insurance companies, stating that he fraudulently made pictures to look like he was in ownership of a rare and valuable guitar which he was trying to get the insurance companies to pay for. His admittance in the affidavit confirms his guilt. Yet originally he denied it all. Stop harping down James throat please.

This is not about bashing anyones opinion. This is all about protecting facts and if there are any possible facts to garner out of Kevin's posts, the authorities will be most thankful that they have access to this public forum. Truth is what we are all looking for here.

Ya, when I was young I did lots of stupid things too, heck I even got arrested as a 14 year old for trying to sell stolen goods to a pawn shop, give me a merit badge too. We all have black marks. But everyone can change.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

No.

Mike

I would imagine Kevin's being (wisely) advised not to comment about any of this, especially on a public forum.

Let's not jump down people's throats for wondering if the money and/or items that they donated went to defray actual medical costs or to post bail. I'm sure some really sacrificed in order to be able to help him out with medical costs. Asking for accountability, especially in light of the confirmed circumstances, is not the same thing as sitting in judgement.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

There is no indication of a conviction. On the contrary, the Magisterial District docket indicates that on April 9 Kevin waived preliminary hearing and the charges were forwarded to the trial court. The policeman's affadavit is not proof of the allegations it contains (although it may be evidence of them).

Kevin likely has legal reasons and instructions not to discuss his insurance fraud case with anyone. His cancer is another matter. I still find his and Paula's descriptions of it convincing.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I most def stand corrected. I actually thought about changing my post, but then thought better of it. What is true is he has been indicted.

My appologies.

Mike

Everyone, please read the posting I made this morning and asked Lance to pin at the top of the forum.

I, as well as Sam Middlebrook, have pledged to get all the facts in this matter and make them known to all. Sam will be traveling to Pennsylvania, along with another man from his church as a "disinterested third party", at their expense, to witness firsthand Kevin's situation both at home and at the hospital. A status report will then be prepared and posted for all to see.

Meanwhile, if you want to beat on someone, beat on me. I led you down this path in an effort to help a seriously ill person and fellow luthier. My relationship with him never even suggested deceit on his part. Call me naive, then, but let's stop bashing this subject until all the details are brought to light.

Hank

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Hank Mauel

Mike I do not wish to preach but. just for the record. Here´s Luke chapter 6 :37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Sorry just had to. I am of the topic as I think I am talking to much tonight

Amen to that.

Love and peace to you all my friends. and I hope there are no hard feelings for me being forward and speaking my mind

Your friend, Lars.

I'm hoping we can keep this thread headed in the direction it started with. The "Kevin, no matter what has happened, we are here to support you" direction. I don't know Kevin at all, but that general tone of human understanding and forgiveness impressed me more than any of the craftsmanship and knowledge I've encountered on this forum. I've made at least my share of bad mistakes. I've learned that your friends don't always stand by you when things go bad. But some of them do--not defending what you've done or excusing it, but making it clear that they're still with you. It has been almost worth the screw ups to learn how important that support really is. I would really like to be the sort of person those friends were. We'll sort out the details of the damage later. I don't think we can do much to change those. Kevin, I'm still hoping that you don't have cancer. Whatever is going on, getting through it isn't going to be easy. Your friends are still with you.

Well, I DO have cancer (found out Friday 9th April) and it friggin hurts like a mother (expletive deleted).

If he's just running a scam with the cancer thing then he should be reported for all the passing of the hat that's been going on, on his behalf 'cause that's fraud too.

If he does have cancer then he has my most profound sympathy - my health care is assured in this country, you folks have a ways to go in that regard, or so I understand. Trying to scrape up some cash for treatment - well, in my position I'd be sawing off a shotgun and briefly (as possible) visiting the bank, if we didn't have free healthcare here in Oz. Cancer bloody hurts, not just you in the physical sense, but your family and friends too. And I know that in the US it costs an arm and a leg to pay for treatment.

I don't think it's right to judge anyone til you hear ALL the facts.

I guess that's why they invented courts....