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Good Morning Everyone:
Simple question today. As I have never played plugged in or even in front of a group I'm wondering about electronics. I am building an instrument for a gentleman who plays out frequently, he wants pickups in the guitar. Everyone here recommends the K+K pure western minis. They make the basic set-up for about $100, for $200 you get the pick-up plus the volume control and a phase switch. Is it worth the extra money? Does having the sound hole controls come in handy?
Thanks in advance..... Mikey

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

I think the active system (the Ultra Pure) is quite a bit better than the basic system. Whether it's worth the extra money is an individual decision.

Rick

Having control over the output of a pick can be a catch 22 of sorts. It's good for the player but can be murder on the sound man.

It sort of depends on what the overall set up is for your customer. Maybe he has external pre-amp and controls already (check with him) or if he has nothing, I'd say it's better to just get an external pre-amp (clips to the guitar strap) or some other set up. It's just easier this way and you can use this with different guitars too.

The K&K puts out a very good signal. My good friend has one in his guitar (which I made) and he also bought the external pre-amp too. He never uses the pre-amp as the pick up on its own puts out a very hot signal to the board.

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I use the K&K mini through their pure XLR preamp. As inferred, the preamp connects directly to an XLR and also runs off the phantom power although you could use and external power supply or even a battery. Once we got the EQ and gains balanced (which was easy) then I only use the volume on the preamp only as an on/off control and let the sound guys handle the rest. BTW, the sound guys really like the sound of the mini in the house and I can say it sounds real nice when recorded.

My feeling is the less that is inside the guitar, the better. YMMV.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

From the perspective of a builder and a player, I lean toward the passive system. No batteries to die on you in the middle of a gig. Fewer potential problems all around. An external preamp can give control to the player.

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K&K mini western has enough output by it self to be used but I use the external preamp as I find the Mini westerns are a little too bass oriented for my taste, so I dial a little off in the preamp. A sound guy might not pick up on the extra bass and back off a little as it is not extreme but I would rather not have it. I prefer the Trinity system with external preamp, I use only about 20% or so mic and full mini western, the mic adds a little depth to the sound but needs to be used as little as possible as I find it will get a little boomy and hollow sounding and of course creates feedback.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
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not to hi-jack, but along the same lines. i've got a guy that's going to be running a k & k pickup into an ultrasound amp, and using that amps d.i. to go the house. from what all of you k & k vets are saying it sounds like the pure western mini without any preamp should work for this set up. is that right?

It will work great straight into the amp, when I use my Roland AC90 and I don't need the mic I go right to the amp and back of the bass just a bit and set Mid and treble at center, lots of power to drive the amp.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
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That is exactly what I did in church for years. Used the amp for my "floor monitor", dialed in what I wanted on the effects and sent it to the board. I could then control the volume of the monitor so as not to affect my instrument and positioned myself on the stage away from the rest of the system monitors that the band and singers used. Worked wonderfully and is what I'd do again if called upon. For the occassional solo situation, it worked just as good as with the entire band. The Ultrasound is a great little amp, adequate power (we're not emulating Jimi Hendrix here) and is light weight.
Prior to the Ultrasound I had a rack system along with a TOC floor speaker for monitor. It weighed a ton and was a real hernia generating set up. And it didn't sound appreciably better/different from what I got out of the Ultrasound.

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Hank Mauel

Rod True, speaks the truth!

As an engineer, nothing is more frustrating than setting the system gain only to have the player muck it up by screwing with their onboard gain. If they need more, then they need to ask the monitor engineer for more, not turn it up on the guitar.

Another argument against onboard controls is that your pickup is likely to last a long time. It's better to keep it simple on the instrument and upgrade your preamp than to put one onboard. I've installed the full monty trinity system -- USB, UST, mic, onboard preamp and controls. It's a boat load of gear in the guitar.

You need to find out how he's going to use it, and what he's going to put it through. If he's playing in a full band, the K&K pure mini is probably the wrong answer. It's great for soloists, and folks with modest stage levels, but its the wrong answer for someone like CSN that maybe an acoustic rock band, but their stage levels are prohibitive.

Not interested in starting an argument but do want to relay my experiences. BTW, I'm also an engineer (EE type) FWIW.

The K&K mini is suitable for more than just modest stage levels. I don't know about the intense volumes of a rock band, I used to use a UST and a mic when I played acoustic in those days. These days I play in an orchestra where the ambient volume level can get very high. I sit about 4 feet from a grand piano, 6 feet from the percussion section and about 10 feet in front of a full choir. I even have a honkin tenor sax right in front of me. Its so loud that if I didn't have an in-ear monitor (Aviom multi-track) system I wouldn't have a clue what I was playing. And if it weren't for the sound guys nobody would hear me As I've said before the K&K mini with the Pure XLR preamp works very well and our sound guys really like what they get out of the system to work with. These guys know whats good; we get our share of visiting performers, electrics, acoustics, internal or external mics, UST, miked amps, and on and on. Seems like the experienced performers usually have something that works pretty well for them and everybody has a slightly different approach.

One concession I have to make is that the guitar will resonate when I'm not playing so I either damp the strings with a finger or turn the volume off on the Pure XLR Preamp which is mounted on my monitor stand. The preamp has a separate gain control that we set once during the initial level checks so the volume control is either full-on or full-off, basically I use it as a bypass switch. In this environment guitar resonance would be a problem with any pickup or even a mic although the K&K is better at picking up the soundboard nuances, which is probably why it sounds as nice as it does.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I install a lot of K&K PWMs aftermarket, always passive. Their pure classic system, for nylon string guitars, is quite the ear pleaser; I get consistent referrals from classical players.

Tip: don't use the supplied gel superglue, use a medium superglue. Better coupling with the bridgeplate/top. Spray some superglue accelerator on a piece of paper towel or cotton ball before you install, wipe the contact area, wait for it to dry.

Furthermore: a piece of plastic mirror inside the guitar, and a CF light dropped inside, make installs much easier.
I have a handful of templates that I use, which I'll take pictures of, and post, later.

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Jeffery:
As I'm installing before I close the box, I wonder if perhaps hide glue might work even better?
Mike

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

That's a very interesting idea. A rub joint with HHG.

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Good question. I might worry about long-term adhesion but I've only installed them with super-glue.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'm not sure installing this pickup before you close the box is a very good idea. Placement is so critical that I would think it would be difficult to know exactly where the saddle will be until the bridge is on. The company recommends super glue for a reason, that's what I'd use. You don't want a transducer popping off in the middle of a gig.
I do have one client that is a professional player that wanted a combination K&K /Sunrise. K&K made a custom pickup with a pigtail 1/8" minijack with stereo output that accepts the Sunrise and he mixes the signal outboard. He uses the K&K most of the time but dials in the Sunrise in high feedback situations. He uses a Bose L1.

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Hi All,

Not wanting to hijack the thread either, but everyone's here, my new OM is going to be an active unit. The intent is to play solo stuff like Tommy Emmanuel, no sound man, just me, the guitar, a 30W acoustic amp and a couple of pedals. I haven't purchased anything yet and am open to suggestions based on first hand experience. Is there a big difference between a one pickup and two pickup systems? Active or not? UST and UBT or mics? If we want to start thhis up in a new thread, OK.

Dave

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The classical templates are pulled up to the top, by fishline or E string, through a couple of tiny holes drilled in the saddle slot.

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Terence has it right. If you install the PU before closing the box and you're confident you can line up the neck and bridge *exactly* where you installed the K&K (a gamble…), make sure you have a vacuum rig to glue the bridge on. Otherwise your bridgeplate caul inside the guitar will crush the transducers.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/