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Mike....I am not exactly sure where the future of this project will end up. My initial desire for this project was to create a better process than I had been achieving with other bending methods. Once Nelson tried the bender and had very positive results it seemed like it would be nice for other builders to benefit from the R&D. I just haven't figured out in my mind how to make the bender available to all.

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Brad
Avon, OH

Forgot to answer the other questions. The two cylinders are piped in parallel so they apply the same pressure and work together very well.

As for 80/20? The current bender I fabricated from steel stock. The results were good but it was alot of work getting everything to fit up correctly. The idea of 80/20 came up as a way to minimize how much effort it would take to build this type of bender. I still think it could be a good idea since most people could build from 80/20 vs. welding. This would work very well if I create drawings for others to use to build their own.

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Brad
Avon, OH

Or plans?
That's not a bad price for the cylinders.

I think the problem with 80/20 will be that you will have to build "bigger" in certain areas to handle the stresses. But yet, it would be ideal since the plans you sell will allow anyone with minimal metal tools to build one. No welding.

I think I would be willing to pay $50-$100 for the plans. More like $50. Make it too high and folks will just go off and attempt their own builds. I do not think the Fox Bender plans are that much (could be wrong, it has been a while), but I would start there and go up some.

I suggest (if you really want to reap the rewards of your effort) you pattent the "idea" and copywight your plans. Then sell the plans and avoid the whole manufacturing process. As well, I suggest that via your patent you require a royalty from anyone building the device for resale.

And I am certain you will see many more comments on this. Because however you do it, you will have to be willing to legally defend yourself against patent infringers. Perhaps the community is not big enough to justify the whole mess. Many build fox benders and resell them. But they first bought the plans. Its not like anybody is going to get rich off of this stuff (given the size of the market).

I guess you need to figure out which you enjoy doing more: making great benders or building guitars.

Mike

I agree

I think you hit the nail on the head!

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Brad
Avon, OH

I'd say sell them as a kit. Then you just produce the components and box them up.

I don't think selling plans will net you nearly what you deserve for the amount of brain put into the design.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

What Bob said! Although plans would be preferable for me personally.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Doing a little comparison of 80/20 type extrusions to mild steel square tubing for framework:

The 80/20 part no. 1010 extrusion (1" square) lists for about $2.76/ft and has a deflection strength (moment of inertia) of .044 and weighs 0.509 lbs/ft.
1" square steel tubing with 1/16" (16 gauge) wall has strength of .034 and weighs 1.03 lbs/ft.
Prices for 1" square steel tubing are all over the chart but generally much less that the aluminum extrusion per foot.

Torsional strength, however, is probably greater for the steel tubing.

The appearance of the aluminum extrusions is cool for what cool is worth.
They can be purchased with any required machining already done. (at a price)
They have built in T-slots which makes for infinite adjustability.
No, I don't own stock in 80/20.

I like the idea of kits with instructional video.

Nelson

Kits or plans only, makes no difference to me. I would just like to get rolling with one.

Mike

Edit: So, who do I make the check out to?

really nice bender Brad! Your design and build skills (cad skills too) are awesome. I hope there is some way you can get compensated for such great ideas.

Now having said that, I'm so glad I build Florentine cutaways

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Probably will embarrass Brad but let me say that it's a pleasure to work with him.
He really enjoys collaboration so don't be afraid to throw out your ideas.

Nelson

I guess that might be determined by what the price is and then by how many he can sale. There are plenty of houses out there on the market and probably everyone I know would like to have one but they aren't selling because they are unaffordable and still over priced and people don't have the cash. Might be more of a profit to sale the plans and a video then the actual machine. And maybe less headaches. Just something to think about.
You know we builders don't have all that much cash so that's why we build most of our own jigs, benders and binding machines etc. I really think a lot of people would like to have one, including me as you all know I like a nice jig as much as the next guy, especially a nicely built and designed one like Brad has done but then do we need one or will the fox bender or Doolin do. Sorry to say but that's what Brad's up against but he probably knows that. I wish him the best of luck with it for sure. It's a sweet bender. But I hope he sales some plans even if I don't build one it would be nice to have a set of plans.

I'm more of a roll your own jig kind of a guy too, I'd certainly buy a set of plans. They might sit on the shelf for a while till I crack two or three nice sets of figured wood then I'd build it because I'd have the plans.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

"I'm a more of a roll your own jig kind of guy"
That's funny Bill because that just made me realize that the bender reminds me of one of the old apron cigarette rolling machines they use to have back in the 70's that you pulled an arm down and it rolled one.

That's what I like about you Chris, you're quick witted and picked up on it immediately!

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I beg to differ with some of the posts. I think Brad would do better to sell kits once he settles on a design than to sell the plans. Plans can be passed around; kits on the other hand aren't something that are easily passed around.

Brad, it appears that you double the steel back on itself around a sheave, thereby load balancing all the bends to support them, or is it that there is a common attachment point around which they are joined (and separated for removal)? It looks like the steel is allowed to slip around the sheave at the top of the arm (and attached to the cylinders). How do you get the cutaway sides out without the residual tension in the system making safe removal a difficult thing?

David, let me respond for Brad here as you ask some interesting questions regarding the banding, which to me is one of the most exciting parts of the machine. Yes, the banding is doubled back on itself over the sheave and has a quick connect splice joint. The air pressure is released when finished bending and the inner and outer bands are disconnected before raising the bender arm back to it's upright position. This makes removal of the formed side very painless.
Sorry, Brad, couldn't help myself.
Nelson

Nelson, it looks from the original prototype that he's just got a bar with a lift handle attached to the inner steel that drops into a pair of hooks to hold it in place before tension is applied. The other thing I notice is that Brad abandoned the waist pre-bending feature of the original in favor of a straight arm.

David

David, I'll let Brad respond to these allegations.
We're lettin' him off too easy here.

"kits on the other hand aren't something that are easily passed around."
David your right but they still can and sketches of it can still be passed around.
Better to make some money from plans then none if he can't sale the kits because of affordability.
There is already enough pictures and info out there now for someone to draw up a set of plans and make their own version of it. Even if you could get a pat. on it there isn't a way to stop someone from making their own version of one. Just like Brad took the idea of the Taylor's waist bender and Mike Doolin's bender which both use tensioned slats and the way they developed the Fox bender use of a form and who knows if Fox didn't possible barrow the idea of the form from the heated aluminum form that Manuel Velazquez has use for years to bend his sides on.
There's no stopping it now. Sorry to say the cat's out of the bag.
Could be Brad doesn't want to get into the manufactoring business. Just like the others.
But it looks like he might have a couple sold already and a couple sets of plans if he wants.

David...good observations. The prebending of the waist had some advantages and disadvantages. Considering the other aspects of bending the cutaway the non pre-bent waist simplified certain aspects of the new design.

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Brad
Avon, OH

Is any of this guitar stuff really secret? I posted my original bender and this was to encourage feedback and to share my findings just as I learned from Taylor, Doolin, Fox, etc. I know what it took to get this far and am fairly confident that if someone has the determination to create their version of this bender they can figure it out. But I will like building guitars it is lots of work.

Believe me that I know that many could benefit from this design (or something like it) and am working on way to make it available.

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Brad
Avon, OH

Nelson....thanks for covering that one.

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Brad
Avon, OH