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I'm having a really hard time finding a good pore filler in the UK, and don't want to use epoxy.
I'm unhappy with the oilbased "wood colour" fillers available, and like just the colour of the wood itself. The "transparent" one I bought from a UK luthier supplier is in fact like a pine sort of colour.
I am thinking of a clear pore filler, something like LMI's acrylic but uncoloured, and am considering making my own from a silica powder, like a silica powder from a glass fibre suppliers here in UK or possibly System 3 silica thickener from LMI, mixed with a quick drying water based acrylic floor lacquer (clear, flexible, reasonably tough)
My thinking is this may fill well with a spreader, not shrink excessively, will sand easily, could be used with any colour of wood, will be inexpensive and, with shellac coats under and over, would be compatible with anything for finishing coats.
Just trying to think out of the box a bit, and wondered if anyone has any comments/suggestions.
Have I missed something?
Or has something like this been tried and there is a reason I can't find something like this on the market?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Colin-
I've used a lot of 'fumed silica' powder (BTW, wear a good dusk mask and don't work in drafts with this stuff!) for epoxy thickening, and not all of it dries clear.
The 'original' product 'over here' was Cabosil, and it seemed to mix up clear and colourless. The generic stuff I get now definitely dries whitish.
So you definitely want to check and experiment. (Doesn't all lacquer shrink for quite a while?)

I've used oil-type fillers, shellac and pumice, and epoxy. I like epoxy. Second choice would be pumice, probably, or one of the fillers from LMI/StewMac for experiments.

Let us all know how the experiments turn out!

Cheers
John

I'm glad that John covered the hazards of using silica. Thanks John!

Colin I'm curious as to why you won't consider an epoxy pore fill? System III (they even sell silica to mix with SIII) finishing resin, Z-Poxy finishing resin, and West Systems epoxy all make excellent pore fillers.

Anyway handling silica is every bit as hazardous as epoxy is a sensitizer and CA has it's own hazards such as the fumes and gluing your nose to your guitar....

When I started building I had so very much trouble getting the various pore fillers to actually work that I nearly quit building over it.... When I learned how to epoxy pore fill it solved all of my pore filling problems.

If your preference for the natural color and look of wood is behind not wanting to use epoxy you can pore fill with epoxy and sand back to the wood leaving the epoxy only in the pores.

Anyway our friends The Padma and Robbie O'Brien both have opened my mind to the idea that anything that will fill the pores, stay put, not shrink or come out, and look OK without killing you in the process can be an excellent pore filler.

I have noticed that fish glue fills pores very nicely where you don't clean up the squeezeout properly. Haven't done it yet, but I am going to experiment with a few panels next time I'm spraying lacquer. I plan to butter up a third of each panel with one coat of fish glue, one third with two coats & one third untreated.
It'll be a few weeks, 'till I'm in the spray room again, so this may not be very helpful right away... Unless you want to try some test panels yourself.
I find pore filling a pain too & am always looking for ways to simplify the process.
Good luck.

Karl Hannabach the German maker used HHG for a filler.
He spread it on with a flat stick of waste wood and let dry-then scraped it level.
Then applied his finish ;which was a brush on lacquer.
I have a video of him from the early 90's -he made the V joint by hand as well as all other parts.
An incredible woodworker !

I've used the Fish glue and it worked -BUT I put a sealer coat of shellac on first as to NOT raise the grain to much.-or cause any warping from the water in the glue.

Mike

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Mike Collins

From my reply in the adjacent "Clean purfling quest" thread:

"I'm using the LMI Micro Bead filler as prep for my French polish. The micro bead is a paste with filler (the micro beads) and pigment in an arylic water soluable base. Ater sanding to 100 I apply using a credit card and then once dry sand it off with 120. The Micro Bead sands off CLEAN leaving the inlay work nice and bright. I then apply an egg wash to seal against the bleed (not to fill) and once dry apply the shellac "spit" coat."

This provides a decent degree of fill though it takes several FP bodying sessions to completely fill the pores.
A friend of mine whose work I respect showed me a Z-poxy filled sample panel at the ASIA Symposium. It was indeed level and sealed preparatory to the FP but there was qute a bit of material on the wood.....seemed to me that though the approach made the FP really quick and easy, it rather negated the reason for doing FP in the first place.

Has anyone ever figured out what some of the big companies use?

On one of Taylors Factory Fridays they use some kind of clear paste type that they wipe on. Does anyone know what that stuff is???

CrystaLac?

http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CPF-253 ... ain-Filler

At one time Taylor was using Lawrence Mcfadden UV cured pore filler. I haven't talked to my friend there in a couple years though. Polyester finishes (like Taylor uses) don't shrink any. Small pores or pores that aren't completely filled are usually just filled with polyester.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

What ever they use sometimes shrinks into the pores, I have seen several Taylor guitars with the pores showing if you hold the guitar in the light at the right angle and they were not cheap ones. We all suffer from the same issues when it comes to finishing.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Egg Whites???

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

There is much 'egg white' history to be found here (probably in the archives) if you do a search.

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Jim Hansen

Yo, Collin

Just what the Hesh said about me ... "if you can shove it into the pours and it stays put then its a valid pour filler".. The part about it not killing you must be Robbie O'Brien's take on pour fillers, and ya, I can see his point.

Lately me been using water born poly from the Uncle Wally Mart store. Slap it on, sand it down. Done. Dries clear. Cheap like borstch.

Some one mentioned hide glue...me gotta try that simply cuz the viscosity of the stuff can be varied.

To get a thicker viscosity of water born poly or acrylic, ya gotta let it sit out for a few days in an open container and stir the stuff every few hours....real hassle, so I just build it up by brushing it on in layers. Simple enough.


peace and carrots

Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Thanks for the feedback.

John, Cabosil is still available, and I can get quantities cheaply here.
Since the post I've done some internet research, and dispersion and air micro-bubbles entainment are the problem for clarity (they were talking about thin layers in that article). Even vigourous mechanical stirring is poor at dispersing it.
Ultrasonics are required for better breaking up of the nano "clumps" (for want of a better word) as they are so small they stick together quite tenaciously, part of the properties of a colloid.
Maybe an ultrasonic cleaner? Certainly the frequency is about correct, normally +/-40 mHz. May be worth a try, perhaps with a little water initially and then adding it to acrylic "a la" the Padma as it would help to minimise shrink-back normal for all air drying lacquers.

Hey, Padma, thanks for pitching in. Perhaps mechanisation is the answer to thicken your waterbased, or is a drill and bent wire coat-hanger just that step to far?

Hesh, I'm trying to avoid epoxy (it does a reasonable job of course) because of I am working with enough toxins as it is (and it's a really messy to apply and a tough sand, hence easy to sand through, by me at least)

The Crystalac thing - fumed silica is part at least of the ingredients (huge tubs only and twice as much for postage from the states as the price of the product) and it's had mixed reviews - Guitar ranch said NO NOT USE, dries patchy white, but seemed to be trying it to fill huge dings and craters with it, and I'm not sure they sealed it first, which is needed.
Thanks David, and the LMI paste is the nearest I could see commercially to what I was thinking of, may end up trying it, but seems to be what I am trying to do here in UK and the colour put me off.

Thanks Jim and mhammond, Egg white is a possibility - easy to try out, I'd already had a look at the archives, but hesitated because of possible medium term degradation of organic material (food) - yes I do know it's been used for centuries.
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From the past posts again, Robby O'Brians end grain dust tempts me as well. I did think about that previously but had dismissed it as impractical trying to get the fill to stay in the pores, but that was with water based. Thin cuts of shellac obviously work better.

Mike, HHG would work, but you haven't you seen how messy I am!
Seriously, I hesitate to apply HHG to woodwork over such a large area I have invested that amount of work in with a handle like "clumsy Colin" in my family, and wince at the thought of hot water based substances even near something I have had for years in a humidity controlled environment.

Daniel, fish glue, difficult to source over here, and shrinkage as it dries - multiple coats. Essentially that's the reason for my search for a clear bulking agent for a filler. Basically it's best to start with an ideal as an goal, then compromise only if one has to.

And a big thanks for the input to all.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Hello Collin,
One method I am going to be trying that Jeff Jewitt, a renowned furniture finisher uses in his FP is an 8# cut of shellac with pumice, it's pretty thick, you can barely brush it. He likes to brush it inwith one of those round brushes, then wipes the excess off with burlap.
Mike

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Mike McNerney

I've seen that Jeff Jewitt video. His method looks interesting but I haven't tried it. Eugene Clark's method using pumice, as described by Somogyi in Making the Responsive guitar, works well and is easy to do. And I guess it's non-toxic so long as you don't snort the pumice.
Walter

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Walter Lay
"It's taken me so long, but now that I know
I can see. All that I do or say, is all I ever will be"
- Billy Joe Shaver

though i've never used the stuff (but probably will soon), my mentor uses a stiff mix of shellac to fill pores. he refers to it as having a 'honey' consistency.
if you're trying to avoid toxins, this might be a good solution.