Official Luthiers Forum!

Good points John,

Any organization who's main purpose is to organize and disseminate information, is going to have to embrace technology, and learn how to adapt to the Internet to support whatever it's model is.

GAL is doing a decent job of this, with their online ordering and stuff, but they really need to take this to the next level and start providing an online service as well as their print publications.

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Jim Hansen

Kathy-
Thanks for that info.
I don't know which is worse- being charged extra for postage or having Canada considered to be part of the USA!
They really do need a 'third category'- Canadian subscribers, or just call it 'North American'.
Cheers
John

Join Both!

I've gotten so much out of my subscriptions - and more from the symposia that I've attended (one GAL, one ASIA), that I really see the benefits of both organizations.

From my perspective, both organizations embody the principles of sharing of great information, camaraderie, and love of luthierie that mean so much to me. I don't see the benefits of one over the other.

The only issue is geographic preference, should you attend one of the annual meetings. GAL tends to be on the west coast, ASIA on the east coast. If you're in MIneesota, you've got the best of both worlds.

From my years with ASIA, I can tell you all that the most frustrating thing is reading this kind of discussion on-line. I struggled, pleaded, and wrestled with members to contribute to the magazine and organization. It was a constant effort. It seems that most of us would rather complain about things than contribute to making them more relevant and useful. I suppose that's human nature but I hoped for better from the lutherie community.

ASIA was founded with the goal of being a member-driven organization, unlike the top-down structure of GAL.* Our board was elected by the members and they and the Director/Editor were supposed to be responsive to member input. I see that there are lots of new faces on the board and at the magazine, and all that's good. But the organization will only be as strong as YOU make it! If there's something you'd like to see in Guitarmaker, let the editor know -- or, better, write it and get it published! If the Symposium needs a new location or other improvement, volunteer to make it happen. If you don't participate in some constructive way, you have no standing for complaints about the direction and quality of the organization.

Rick

* This isn't a slur on GAL or Tim Olsen, by the way. I belong to and value both orgs. But there is, at least in theory, a difference in structure between the two.

Rick-
I understand your frustration, but only a very small fraction of the readers/members are competent/capable of, or interested in, writing articles to the standard required.
Face it- both GAL and ASIA depend for their continued success on a large mass of amateur builders shelling out those annual dues , and many of those amateurs (and many pro builders as well- some don't write, others don't want to share much) don't have the ability or inclination to write articles, sit on boards, etc.
Limiting complaints to people who can make the necessary changes is not a model I see working well anywhere. What's the point of having a Board/Executive if it is not willing to be responsive to the input from the (actual and potential) 'customer base' ?
For instance, if the organizations were really interested in finding out why folks choose not to join/subscribe, it would be a simple matter to put an appropriate feedback/survey section on the web page. I don't see that.

John

In a way, I agree with you, John. I think one of my weaknesses as Director of ASIA was not being a dynamic leader -- I tried to involve people in the process rather than barging ahead in the directions I thought we ought to go and trying to get folks to follow. That's long under the bridge. There's a new Director and almost all-new Board.

But I don't agree that there are only a few folks who can contribute. First, everyone who contributes to this Forum could be contributing to Guitarmaker or Amer. Lutherie. You're brave enough to post your opinions and techniques in a public forum, why not submit them to a lutherie magazine? The editor may choose not to publish everything but wow! How great to be in the position of choosing among lots of submissions instead of frantically trying to get ANYTHING to fill the pages! And as you pointed out, it's not the jaded pros who keep the orgs alive, it's the great number of amateurs and beginners. The information they need isn't limited to the most experienced professionals.

In a way, everyone who added to this thread is contributing and I hope that the Board members and Directors of ASIA and GAL are reading it. What frustrates me is that so few folks have the confidence (in the organization as well as themselves) to state their opinions directly instead of through other channels. Let them know what they ought to be doing to be of value to YOU -- if you think there's any value to such organizations, it's almost an obligation to participate!

That's quite flattering, Rick, but....
To be blunt- what's the point of paying $15 a pop for a magazine that has info from people with my skill/experience level (or less)? That's the fodder of the online scene, as you indirectly point out. In an online forum, people who know better-or not-can jump right in with corrections/alternatives/etc. In a printed magazine, you would soon have all 'Letters to the Editor' and no room for articles!

The whole idea (for me) of an edited (paper) magazine is that the information should be more 'trustworthy' than the stuff we typically find online. There has to be something in Guitarmaker or AL to make it seem worth paying for. I don't find many articles online about inspecting important historical instruments (with plans and dimensions) or interviews with luthiers who aren't part of the online scene. That's the sort of thing that keeps me paying the GAL dues lately.

Cheers
John

I know some folks have a seemingly unlimited 'hobby and education' budget (notice the $1k/day courses and $150 books, magazines like Fretboard Journal, etc etc), but I can't be the only person who has to watch expenses.
I think that the annual fee/dues/subscriptions for GAL/ASIA may be a real impediment for some prospective members.

Since the finances of most organizations seem to be more-or-less secret, it's hard to tell how the economics work, though they all say they are strapped for cash!

There is a price point where people will much more readily shell out money.
If GAL/ASIA went to an electronic version of their publications at a (much) reduced price, would it be the key to greater success or the first step toward death of the organization?

Cheers
John

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. Rick, I can assure you that each and every member of the ASIA Board will see this thread and take the comments to heart. I hope that this thread continues.

As a key agenda item, the ASIA board plans to solicit the comments (and criticism) of our current and former members in order to help us make ASIA a better resource to its members. We are a very energized group of volunteers who are committed to growing ASIA and keeping it viable. If you are an ASIA member, we work for you!

Mike Franks
http://www.mjfranksguitar.com

My opinion is that both are organizations that support the lutherie community, and being a member of both, while it may not benefit you directly, though I can't imagine it, benefits the community in a big way. They both deserve our support. Also, there is always something in the publications that is valuable, not to mention interesting and informative relative to the world that interests us so much.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I remember the GAL's early small format magazine and found it interesting though a little "out there" (even considering the times) and it was a difficult organization for me to participate in seeing that their conventions were across the continent.
In retrospect though, I would have benefitted greatly from participation.
When ASIA was formed in 1985, I joined immediately, mostly due to the fact that I knew and enjoyed the founder Dick Boak from doing business with him at Martin and it seemed like it might be fun, and it was.
Most memorable was the Symposium of 1985 where the featured speakers, performers and guests included Mario Maccaferri, C.F. "Fred" Martin III, Manuel Velazquez and Roy Smeck (beat that line-up).
ASIA had the participation of the major players in the guitar making world from the onset and the many conventions in close proximity to the Martin factory gave them a special cachet.
Today of course the GAL has matured and does an unsurpassed service to the luthier community through it's plans and books.
ASIA has had it's ups and downs but at the moment it is doing great service to a large group of folks who are new to this work (but by no means new to work in general) and who I believe are finding the new "shop article" direction of the magazine and workshops of the kind that were offered at the last Symposium worth their time and support.
My first article in the ASIA mag was in 1993 and the latest in spring 2009 with several in between. It has always been an accessible and important vehicle for luthiers to express their ideas and offer new methods.

I can say that for the 8 years I have been a member of ASIA , it was the 2003 symposium that truely sent me on my way. Without ASIA , there would not have been a Blues Creek Guitars. I find that the magazine is very helpful in my education.
The diverse articles are targeted to different levels of expertise. I have had 3 articles that were in the Guitarmaker. I hope we can creat an atmosphere were the memebership will feel we are approachable to solve any issues of the past .
John Hall

One 'elephant in the room' that I never see mentioned is the actual cost of memberships- like ASIA and GAL (as well as magazines, books, 'educational courses', tools and materials, etc) to the purchaser.
Depending on the tax structure where you live, the actual cost to the amateur/hobbyist builder will be double (or more) the cost to the pro or semi-pro.
This is one reason why hobbyists seldom subscribe to pricey 'trade magazines' or join trade associations in other areas (like car restoration, boatbuilding, etc).
It seems to me that this could be part of the problem when organizations like ASIA try to 'reach out' to the hobbyist community, if the 'trade base' is not big enough to sustain the organization.
After all, ASIA describes itself as a 'professional trade organization'.

Cheers
John