***** Guitar Project Jigs, Tools & Techniques Online Resources Archives OLF Video Page Library of plans MP3 Library Inlay Class
Offical Luthiers Forum





And our community proudly sponsored by:

RC Tonewoods | Stewart MacDonald | LuthiersForum
TasmanianTonewoods | OLF | OLF MERCH
Luthier Suppliers | Pacific Coast Woods | ELEVATE
OLF X | Tasmanian Acoustic Tonewood | Luthiers Forum Store!
Luthiers Forum | OLF Facebook | AVAIL SPACE
OLF | Alaska Specialty Woods | A.Hix Tonewood
Duke of Pearl | Birkonium CNC | Space




Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Fri Aug 08, 2025 3:59 am


Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 12 posts ] 
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Pat Hawley
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:46 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:31 am
Posts: 936
Location: Ottawa, Canada
I'm getting started on a classical and have several books and plans (which perhaps may be my problem). Basically, I want to do the 7 fan brace Torres design. The thing is, that in my reference material I've got a very wide variation on dimensions for the fan bracing. For example, on the Torres plan, the braces are shown as being only 2.5 mm tall. In the plans that come with Robbie O'Brien's classical guitar building DVD, the braces are shown as being 6 mm tall. And I have other sizes in between. So I'm interested in opinion and/or advice on fan bracing size for a seven fan braced classical guitar.
Thanks,
Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.
Top
 Profile  
 
Robbie O'Brien
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:30 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:23 am
Posts: 2356
Location: United States
There are many dimensions available depending on the builder and what they are working with. For example, the Hauser plans you refer to use very small braces but you will notice that the top is a bit thicker and he used Euro spruce. In my classical DVD I am using cedar and my version of the Fleta 9 fan brace design. You will find measurements from around 3mm-5mm or even 6mm wide and 2.5mm - 7mm tall. That is a huge difference for a classical guitar. Find one that works for your purposes and go with it.
On a classical guitar think of your bracing pattern as sound distributors and not structural.
Good luck.
Top
 Profile  
 
WaddyThomson
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:56 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9191
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Robbie is right. There are lots of different ways of doing it, and they all seem to work. The traditional Torres bracing is lijke 6 to 7 mm wide and 2.5 to 3.0 mm high. My braces are 3 mm wide and vary from 4 mm on the outside pair to 6.5 mm high, on the center 3 braces. I would go with whatever plan you are going for. Each will result in a slightly different sound, but the truth is that you are going to get your sound, what ever that turns out to be.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars
Top
 Profile  
 
jfmckenna
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:48 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6262
Location: Virginia
Yup either go short and wide or thin and tall. I've done both with good results. I still see the braces as structural on a classical guitar. I typically build the center three braces a bit stronger then the outer ones sometimes using Sitka for the center three and fading out to Cedar. It's all voodoo at this point to me but I like to try things and so far I have not built a bad sounding classical guitar and the 15 year old one that has been used and abused is still holding up, that one built by the Sloan method which was the short fat bracing scheme.
Top
 Profile  
 
Colin S
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:03 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 3840
Location: England
On my Torres guitars, which are based on the Torres FE19, the fans are 3mm tall by 7mm wide. My Aram based on the FE13 are also the same. On this period Torres the braces had a gable end cross section.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.
Top
 Profile  
 
Pat Hawley
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:06 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:31 am
Posts: 936
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'll go the short, wide route since my main reference plan is the Torres SE 114 and the top will be Englemann spruce.

Cheers,
Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.
Top
 Profile  
 
senunkan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:24 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:07 pm
Posts: 206
Location: Singapore
First name: Sen
Last Name: Goh
Country: Singapore
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I use 7mm wide 3mm tall braces on my Englemann top.
Also based on the Torres fan with kite apex at 14 fret but with open harmonic braces.
One odd thing which I did was to make the cross section profile of the different
The center 3 braces were having triangular profile whereas the out braces are having rounded.
Originally all was having rounded profile, then I got my new chisel and I want to test how good the chisel is and use it to make the central 3 braces to become triangular in profile.
Not sure why I did that though.

Sen

_________________
-----
Sen CL Goh
http://senguitar.blogspot.com
Top
 Profile  
 
David LaPlante
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:01 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:51 pm
Posts: 1134
Location: Albany NY
First name: David
Last Name: LaPlante
Status: Professional
I'm usng 6.0 mm wide for the center 3, 5.5mm for #'s 2 and 4, and 5.0 mm for the outermost 1 and 7.
I'm also using a treble bar and single "cut off" bar....but that's another topic.
Shape varies depending on location. Some are taller and more "V" shaped, others are lower and dome shaped in cross section.
As stated above, everyone has their own perception of this and it's really something you have to develop over time as you get a better sense of how things work and the proper degree of robustness needed on a classical guitar.

Most of the commonly available plans will give good results (albeit different).
Top
 Profile  
 
jlneng
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:02 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:35 pm
Posts: 157
Location: Mequon, WI USA
First name: John
Last Name: Nowicki
City: Mequon
State: WI
Zip/Postal Code: 53092
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
One idea that might help guide you, get an inspection mirror or scope and find some vintage guitars to look inside. You might find some interesting surprises. If you know any owners who have vintage classicals, ask them if you can take a peek. I have examined numerous Rucks, Ramirez, 1942 Marcelo barbero, 1932 Doming Esteso and it really opened up my eyes. I build Flamencos but I am sure that you get the idea. Check out the top thickness too while you are at it. I have never had an owner say no. I think most take it as a complement. My 2 cents....My belief is that the bracing for a flamenco or classical is really dependent on how stiff and how thin the top is. If I have a stiffer top I make the braces alot shorter in height. If the top is not as stiff, I might make the braces taller in height. I use German Spruce for tops, and either spanish cypress or EIR for the B&S.

_________________
John Nowicki
Top
 Profile  
 
jfmckenna
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:14 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6262
Location: Virginia
Filippo Morelli wrote:
All the folks in the world can tell you what dimensions they use. In the end the sound you are considering cross grain stiffness, top thickness, stiffness of your bracing, size and thickness of bridge patch and how you want all of this to play into your sound. I'd suggest picking a plan and running with it and thickness the braces to what feels right to you and what the top is telling you. I believe our eyes, ears and feel in the fingers tell us a lot if we listen with those senses. The fact that we can't always articulate a discrete metric as the outcome is akin to trying to press an n-dimensional world into a 1 dimensional representation. Unfortunately science relies largely on math as its lingua franca; there you have it. The premise that, if you can't represent it mathematically it must not be real (or right) is exactly what brings us to, "is it 6mm or 5mm" to get the "right" sound (whatever that is!)

I know on the Hauser I'm doing now, I went with the numbers that were provided as a starting point. In the end I tried to let my sense of what was going on guide the brace shape and overall stiffness of the top. I'm no expert, but I think the mechanistic reasoning around all this stuff can get taken too literally and off the beaten path of what actually matters.

Good luck. Please don't take my above comments as criticizing, but rather encouraging you to start somewhere and let your fingers and ears tell you where to take those braces. Please post photos and experiences as you undertake this classical. Mostly steel string folks here so it's great to see some classical stuff being posted!

Filippo


Well said! The blue print are basic dimensions and are great for beginning luthiers who just want to follow a recipe. Even my first guitar I started experimenting with my own thing which in hindsight was rather dumb but now I always try different things based on intuition and feel, hopefully coupled with experience. You know, it's hard from the time that you brace a top and feel it's flex till when it's finally strung up. Lots of variables in that equation to try and remember.
Top
 Profile  
 
douglas ingram
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:58 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 1505
Location: Lorette, Manitoba, Canada
First name: Douglas
Last Name: Ingram
City: Lorette
State: Manitoba
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
There are a lot of variable, I'd suggest that you keep to the SE114 plan and really pay attention to the character of the top as you work it, brace it, and shape the braces.

Only then will you have a reference. All the talk and numbers won't mean a thing till you have your own reference in your head and fingers.

Good luck, it will be hard to go wrong with SE114!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 12 posts ] 

Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com