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Hello all,
As you can see I am new here. I made my way over from the Acoustic Guitar Forum in search of some advice on shop setup. I've always wanted to get into guitar building since I started playing guitar years ago. Now I am in Iraq and I have some deployment money saved up. I am trying to set up a shop now so that in about 5 years, when I am transitioning out of the military I can move into building guitars full time.

In addition to building (mainly acoustics), I would like to be able to buy and mill large 2" flitch slabs from lumberyards. I am hoping to a portion of the wood initially to offset my tools and materials costs. Especially since it will be a while before I sell a guitar!

Steel City 13" Helical planer $600
Grizzly Drill Press G7945 $225
Grizzly 6"x24" jointer $210
17" Band Saw $850
Universal side bending machine $540
Drum Sander (haven't found one yet) Someone at AGF recommended a Performax 16/32 Drum Sander. Sounded good until I saw the $1300 price tag.

I would like to cap my initial budget at $6,000. I have several other items listed as well, like sprayers, an air compressor etc. but these are the big things that I am looking at. Some of this stuff I am going to try to find used. Someone also advised me to drop the planer.

So if you were to start over and set up your shop all over again, knowing what you know now, how would you do it?

thanks in advance for any advice.

If your shop is going to be strictly for guitar building, sure... Drop the planer.
I use my planer all the time, but mostly not for guitar related projects.
Personally, I wouldn't consider a shop without a tablesaw.
I use it ALL the time for guitarmaking and everything else I do with wood. You don't need a big expensive one. An old 9" Rockwell or Sears & a 7 1/4" Freud Diablo (or something as good) blade will do fine, as long as the saw is in decent shape. I've seen 'em for $50.00 at yard sales.
Once you have a few tools, you can build your own Fox bender, if you have the time.
You will probably want a binding jig pretty early in your building career. You can find enough info on this & other forums to build your own quite easily.
There are many other things you'll need, but I think it's best to get started & see what you actually require. You will accumulate tools & equipment pretty quickly once you get started.
A couple of good hand planes & a set of card scrapers are a must. A few good chisels don't have to break the bank. And... Sharpening stones. I use a diamond stone from lee valley for shaping & Japanese water stones to 8,000 grit for sharpening.
I'm sure you'll get LOTS more suggestions, but these are the basics as I see it.
Have fun... And stay safe over there, OK?

thanks Daniel. I was just going to buy the universal side bending machine for like $540.00. How much would it cost to build myself. If I can build it for half that, it's a no-brainer.

Your definitely going to need a dust collector, I thought I could get away without one for a little while... so much for that, ordered one yesterday. Personally I would want a larger drill press. I would make your own side bending machine, just buy some heating blankets and controller from bluescreek. I am just using a pipe with a charcoal starter for now for side bending. You can make your own drum sander, maybe someone can weigh in about that. Dont overlook the cost of hand tools, this is a major cost, at least if you are going to get decent ones.

I built one by just studying pictures on the internet for and a little solid guess work for about $40 NOT including the heat blanket. Couldn't get my sides to bend without breaking or burning them. Being sure it was the tool and not the craftsman, I spent the $500+ for a bending machine. It was much prettier than mine, but I still couldn't bend sides. It was the craftsman. A little practice and I got past it and the store bought does do a very good job. Don't think I'd spend the money again though.

Also, I didn't see a dust collection system in your list. Something to think about. Good Luck!

I must say I like having a planer. If you are going to be milling your own boards they do come in handy. After several years of building guitars, like ten years, I got a Performax 16/32 and after the first time I used it I about kicked myself in the ass for not getting one ten years ago. Yes they are pricey but they are great too. BTW I searched and searched online for one and I think I payed about $800 for mine thanks to coupons and other combined deals.

Hi Daniel,

Welcome to the forum! Regarding the side bender, I built mine from plans I purchased form LMI. With press screws, springs and baltic birch plywood I've got about $150 Cdn. Add spring steel slats, heating blanket, a switch and heat control and you'll be in the $350 range give or take all in. Pretty easy to make.

Rick

$800 is not bad. I was just looking around and I found one for $900. I've been able to find some of the other tools on Ebay but most are pickup only. However there are not many used drum sanders on Ebay.

Also I found some hand planers. 7 of them for $197.00 + $20.00 shipping with wooden handles specifically for luthery. Not sure if that is a good deal or not. ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT ) All I know for sure is that for tools, LMI and Stew Mac can be grossly overpriced at times. Like their $400.00 buffing arbor for example. But then again I've never buffed anything other than my car by hand.

I also agree that a planer is handy. I've worked with wood before and I used to work with a Powermatic helical that was just worth it's weight in gold. It could chew up 300 year old heart pine like nothing. I'm thinking a 13" helical planer is plenty. But maybe it's something I can get down the line.

First off - thank you for your service to our country...

Second - prior to purchasing tools and equipment, if you have the time, I might suggest taking some of your money and going to a luthiery school. You will find exactly what you need equipment wise, end up with a guitar, and probably a wealth of free jigs and fixtures. I went to vermont instruments - vermontinstruments.com George Morris, co-inventor of the Side Bender, was the instructor, and I can't say enough about how much I learned. I also had time to copy all the templates, disassemble a bender and draw out the plans, and make several jigs and fixtures.

Just one person's opinion.....

_________________
Ken Bremer
Madison, Wisconsin
http://www.bremerguitar.blogspot.com

thanks for all the great advice and kind words everyone.



I have had my share of schooling. I've been to Art school and music school and somehow ended up in the Army. Hahaha. If I go to luthiery school, I might end up up in a submarine! All jokes aside, how long is luthiery school? Is it more of a workshop or is it actual college courses? A workshop I could do, another college I cannot. I have a bunch of books on order at the moment. I am hoping they suffice. "Building Master guitars" and Ervin Somogyi's "the responsive guitar" as well as "a guide to tap tuning" and "the guitar makers manual".

I was hoping those would suffice. But I will have to look into your suggestion.

thanks again everyone for all the good info. I am updating my shopping list as we speak.

You may consider an 18" woodmaster planer/sander. You can thickness tops with the drum sander and have a good planer, still likely more $ then a performax and a 13 planer, but a heftier tool then both.
Rob

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Hey Joey;
There are many good schools out there & Ken is offering very good advice.
They are fairly pricey & most require from three to six weeks for you to complete an acoustic guitar. Count on working your **s off...
Google luthier + school & you'll find plenty of options.

Be patient. Get home safe. Choose your course wisely. Don't rush.

that is some machine. How often are these things on sale?

Woodmaster Model 712 Molder/Planer - Pro quality and essential features in one compact unit - List Price - $2,657
Sale Price with FREE Shipping thru 3/15/10 -- $1,449
Model 712 includes 5HP, 220V, 23 amp., single-phase Motor, Variable Speed, 110V Feed Motor, Two Steel Extension Tables and Three Knife Cutterhead.
Pro-Pack for Model 712 - List Price - $960.40
Sale Price thru 3/15/10 -- $499

Woodmaster Model 718 Molder/Planer - Best Selling, serious size and quality for dedicated woodworkers, perfect for production. Handles full 18-inch cabinet doors - List Price - $3,459
Model 718 includes 5HP, 220V, 23 amp., single phase Motor, Variable Speed, 110V Feed Motor, Two Steel Extension Tables and Three Knife Cutterhead.
Sale Price with FREE Shipping thru 3/15/10 -- $1,695
Pro-Pack for Model 718 - List Price - $1,123.95
Sale Price thru 3/15/10 -- $605

Either one looks like a heck of a deal. And the free shipping is very enticing.
If this tool can replace a drum sander, a table saw and a planer for $2,000 it might well be worth the price. I would rather have a helical cutterhead though.

I have the Woodmaster 718. The only heads up I'd give is the drum sander can only do pieces down to 5/8" thick before the table hits the feed rollers. I get around this by using a piece of 3/4" MDF with adhesive sandpaper on it. I use this as a "sled" to run thinner stock through the machine. It works like a charm, not a big deal. The advantages are it's uses for other than guitar making (Making custom moldings for my house and other wood working projects). It's a very well built heavy duty machine. I'm very happy with mine.

That said, this is a machine used in professional shops and can be found used frequently (especially during economic downturns). If you are patient and watch craigs list and other classifieds, you can get it for much less.

Good luck and stay safe.

_________________
- Ben Pak
North Wales, Pa.

Again as others Thank for Service. Your Army, I'm Marine, but Semper Fi. As far as school, I won't comment on others as I don't know much about them, but I went to Bryan Galloup School in Grand Rapids, MI. He has an 8 week class and a 24 week class. I went 8 years ago and different than now, but in that class make an electric from high end kit. This gets on familiar with tools, sanding, finishing etc. Then make an acoustic from scratch. If have time, because I know money can be there, the 24 week class is best. I know do the same as the 8 week, then a cutaway classical and an archtop. Used to be a classical and 12 fret cutaway. Again preface that on he changes up on occasion, but give a call. During times waiting for glue dry or whatever, get plenty of time doing and learning repairs. particularly the bread and butter stuff like setup's, fret jobs, small cracks etc.

As far as tools needed in shop, good advice above, but don't forget all the tools specific to lutherie from places like Stew Mac, LMI or others. Many can be made or other tools adapted, but still will need and want to buy others you will want and need. Also don't forget the stuff in hand tools, like chisels, planes etc.

Here is why say money there. He is I believe setup with Government and does GI Bill as well as VA voc rehab. I got mine paid, plus tools. If ask how much in money for tools, just tell them not sure until get to school as Bryan will give list of tools depend on what course doing and want to do. I had no idea and said 4-5K and with all the stuff for a shop didn't cover it all. I had great VSO and he said didn't matter if cost more it cost more and it worked out in the long run. A navy guy and OK since he served the Corps as a Corpsman (just kidding to all Navy folk here) Was Voc Rehab (had think 50% Disability for knee's) got the 24 weeks, every tool on the list, plus pin router, table saw and other stuff and then moneys to setup a shop and help with doing business. Most schools 8 weeks and great but more better. Also has great resources for job placement which I recommend before going fully on own. I know Roberto Vianna good school, but not know what they do or if have VA or other help with finances of school.



I

Thanks, that's some solid advice on something I had not considered. I was considering taking a VA loan when I get out and I still may in order to build a large shop and sufficient storage space for a lot of wood. But using the GI Bill towards an initial shop setup is not something I that I had thought about, and that would be huge. The only problem is the time needed to attend the school. I am active duty enlisted, I will be commissioning this winter. Basically I am not getting out any time soon. I am busy now as it is and I can't see any additional free time on the horizon after moving to the officer corps, not enough time for 24 weeks of instruction anyways. Especially if I start working on my Master's degree. The more I think about that, the more I just want to build guitars. I hate school, I've been in school my whole dang life.

But 8 weeks might be do-able if I can find something local near DC or Baltimore. I'm from New York but I am stationed at Fort Meade right in between DC and Baltimore. Traveling out of State for school would require leave that I do not have. On the flip side though I will have plenty of time to get established while I am in the Army. I don't really plan on working for anyone but myself, this is one of the most appealing aspects to this line of work for me, outside of my love for guitars. No bureaucratic B.S. at all. I have been playing for more than half of my life, I've refinished a few guitars, I always to my own upgrades and setups. I'm pretty sure I can read up on what I don't know (wiring and deconstruction for maintenance).

Thanks, I think you just changed my mind about schools.

Yea, that will take time. John Elshaw who hasn't been here in a long while built classicals. Great guy. Last talked to him a couple of years ago, was a Lt. Colo. Thinks was a Capt. when met him (only on line here, but consider him a friend) My situation somewht different, higher ranking in the enlisted ranks E9 so worked out and I was active and active reserve. Look for guys in your area. One of my main points is you can get along with some smaller tools if this isn't your main business (even if is can make do) but not get tunnel vision on the big tools and remember the smaller stuff has a big cost for good stuff also. I have been at it awhile and just now got a tablesaw. Mine is an older Ridged so traded it for fret job on an old Martin and some repari to an older Strat with setups for both.

One thing all the bases I was at (in non combat zones) had special services areas with some shops. If remember right John did that, but hey he is Air Force and they get all the good stuff. Just some thoughts on looking at where your at and seeing assest may have. There will be tools there and bet areas can work with them.

I have Griz 18" open end drum sander. Except for the wide belts I have used, this works as good as any make or model out there. Like any needs occasional tune up, but isn't that with any tool, hand or power. Less money also.

Woodmaster does sales a few times a year, hey times are hard, I am sure they are happy to get a unit sold. They also have an upgrade policy where they will buy your tool back if you want a bigger one. Used power tools can be great, many of the old iron beast category have already outlived a generation and are ready to outlive another. It takes some patience and time online to learn about them and find them. I love browsing irsauctions.com, nothing to do with the IRS, all cool tools, and some great deals on occasions.

I have a woodmaster 12", bought it for moulding when I had a 16" planer and a performax, now that it is my only planer or sander I would love the 18" to do guitars. I have used the planer, sander and moulder parts (the moulder part made some real $$ if you find the gigs), but it is by no means a table saw replacement. The table saw is really the heart of a woodshop, the jointer lives next to it. I have never used the table saw blades on the woodmaster and don't expect to. They have a huge kerf, and very few teeth, table saws work well because there are so many available blades to match to the application. Remember, the saw spins, but the blade is doing the cutting, quality blades for the correct application are certainly a lesson from my shop 101 experience. For most stuff on a smaller table saw, a quality thin kerf 26t rip with tall stiffeners is the magic ticket for success. Bigger saws will work with anything. I think in a guitar shop, and I think what Todd is saying, you will spend more on the band saw then the table saw for guitar work. Todd's list is excellent, notice 2-3 laminate trimmers and a table router. Dedicated set ups are gold to the work flow. This includes dust collection and electricity. When all the tools are set up, plugged in, with dedicated dust collection, the flow of the shop work can really begin.

Don't forget to budget for adding outlets, lighting, workbenches and basic supplies, glue, thinners, sandpaper, stereo, climate control, dust masks, respirator, shelving. I have a full woodshop set up, but as I am beginning to make guitars, I have run to the hardware store spending $20 at a time till my budget dwindled.

Another tool to look at if your space is small are the shopsmiths. These I have seen used at great prices, though a bit awkward to change functions all the time, you can get it to do most everything, including pin router. As time goes on and your shop develops, it would become a really big drill press and take up too much space.
Rob

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that would be awesome. I will definitely do that. I like the Balt-DC area, I can't wait to get back home.

Contact them before you bid, they are usually helpful, but still salesmen/auctioneers, so verify what they say by contacting their recommended shippers. Shipping on a bigger piece can be $500 easy. Take your time, they always have stuff going on, and at some point there will be something you can drive to, or multiple items you can save on shipping. Remember shippers will charge extra for residential delivery with a lift gate. Also research the tool a bit, I got an scmi shaper through them that was great, until the worm gear to lift the spindle stripped, gripped with fear that my $2500 shaper with $500 shipping was bust, I was thrilled that scmi has a great parts dept. had the part in stock and in my shop the next day. Not all of the tools will be like this and it is an auction, buyer beware. Also understand that the power requirements for older larger tools are greater then newer ones with soft start circuits. I love 3 phase power, the tools just sing, but then you need 220 with a 3 phase inverter, check the cost of a good rotary inverter before you buy. Electronic inverters work, but you loose some (little IMO)of the benefit of 3 phase. You will find that a big part of shop work is setting up the tools to work correctly, this is a big skill and with used stuff, there are bargains, but you may spend more time getting the tool to perform correctly then you want.
I have been living with TAS (tool acquisition syndrome, did not know my condition had a name before reading this forum) most of my life, started when I was 16 working in a bicycle shop. I don't believe there is a cure, don't believe I want one. Sounds like you were born with this genetic condition as well,
have fun,
Rob

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First, I didn´t read through all posts.
About the bender. Dont buy one of those, it is like throwing money in the sea. It will take you about 1 huer tops to build one that works great for bending. and will yield the exact same precicion result as the 5-600 dollar ones. I will try to find some shots of how you can go about.

Lars

I am sold on building my own side bending machine, but I want to copy the Universal side bending machine that does cutaways as well. Where can I find drawings for that? I've only seen drawings for the standard machine. Blues creek guitars sells a lot of the parts, but they look waaaay overpriced to me.

Seems like he would sell a lot more of those machines if he would lower his cost. What he lacked in profit per machine he would surely make up in volume I would think. Or am I greatly overestimating the amount of people in the world that are into guitar building?

You, obviously, have not checked the price of 3/4" Birch plywood lately! He's not over priced at all. Not saying you can't build one cheaper, but John's price is not out of line at all.

_________________
Waddy

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