Official Luthiers Forum!

You bring up some really good points...

I think a bunch of this boils down to -- How can you be appropriately prepared for a Trade Show? It isn't about hiring Strippers... it's about appearing Professional, Organized, Competent, and having an awesome Product for sale!

Remember.. Folks WANT a Luthier who an awesome "Technician" -- and I really think many folks are put off by "Sales Guys".... You aren't buying a Fax Machine that is sold by 50 companies at this same show... You are buying something UNIQUE that isn't sold by Anyone Else at the show!

An interesting thing I have noticed -- The most successful sales people (especially of expensive stuff) are almost *NEVER* the hard sell sorts of folks.... They are the ones who are able to read and feel out buyers "Needs"... They learn how to ferret out what the buyer needs to hear or do or try out to be able to just get over the hump -- To buy what they really want to buy....

Hard sell folks end up with a ton of Returns and a ton of Bad customer will -- They forced their product on someone who really didn't want it... That doesn't work well in a very small, very tightly knit community with a very expensive product that has a *Very* long lead time... like it does when you are selling Magazine subscriptions door to door... .. Sure, you may weasel me into a $20.00 1-year subscription to Popular Mechanics... but just try doing that on a $10,000 sale that has a $3,000 deposit and a 2 year wait time! Just watch me look into the checkbook and suddenly find that I only have $50.00 left this month and all of it going to Groceries!

Now... Back to the OP's dilemma with the pseudo-customer... Who knows what actually happened... Maybe she didn't have the cash available right now... Maybe she has something else going on in her life that worries her about tying up a bunch of cash on an instrument? She may never actually tell you the truth... (Husband/kid out of work, New baby in the family, Gotta pay for something related to the kids, big event coming up in life... Who knows)

What I do know is this:
If she Successfully Recorded with the Guitar... and it Spoke to her... She will be back! Maybe not in 3-months... Maybe not in a year... But.. She will be thinking about one of your guitars *Every time* she hears those tracks. All you can do is make sure that guitar was the one that when she hears those tracks -- She says "Oh Yeah, Now THAT was a Guitar!"

Thanks

John

Hesh, I want you to know that I didn't mean my comments to somehow find themselves directed at you. Marketing is a useful tool. For those of us who grew up in this cottage industry, some of what we distain is the over marketing that some engage in. Again, I'm not suggesting your marketing techniques are problematic. John, we're not worried about losing sales, but rather that we don't like the tone that it sets. It's not something that was part of the community we grew up with and so we find it distasteful.

Some of us yearn for at time when our work was our marketing. We yearn for a time when people's clients were respected. When someone else's client contacted us about a project, we had the courtesy to contact that builder with whom the potential client has had a prior relationship. We yearn for at time when at a show when a musician with a known relationship with another builder was allowed to peruse without being advanced in a blatant shill attempt to draw them into a project. We're old fashioned. Guitarmaking isn't rocket science. Some folk's marketing is so over the top that its farcical. I'm pretty coarse when it comes to someone asking what sets me apart from someone else's -- I'm not particularly interested in the comparison. My guitars are the way they are because of how I resolve the equation of what a guitar is. That equation comprises all the internal deliberations derived from study, experience and gut that direct my decisions as the guitar is built. I'm not interested in blowing smoke up someone's skirt. It's not the hard sell of a marketing scheme, but it is me, and its honest.

Hesh, my comments were not directed at you, but in the context of shows they are tangential reflections of the over the top marketing and behavior by some that us older farts find objectionable. I'm sorry if you took my comments to be directed at you, as they were not. They were directed, generally, at the approaches by newer members of the community to shows, marketing, fair use, and the like that leave many of us with a bad taste in our mouth.

One thing that could be helpful is asking the potential buyer for feedback on the instrument-
takes the pressure she might feel to buy off for the moment, and lets her know also that
you're in this for the long term and making an instrument that suits a fine player's needs is
paramount for you. Though someone might say initially that "it's perfect..", usually there
are some things, maybe niggling but maybe not, that are in the player's mind..

This approach worked for Greg Smallman, who makes John Williams' guitars exclusively
now- he initially asked JW "what do you like about your Fleta, and what would you have
improved if possible" (paraphrase).. just like in any relationship, if the pressure's off the
potential buyer is more likely to move toward your instrument, if it truly suits her.

Well Al unfortunately I can't confirm or affirm that the very best sales "people" are honest and I am sure that everyone here has a horror story about some dishonest sales person, practice, or event....

I can however speak from my own experience which most in the field would view as considerable...

Before I hung up my hat I was a sales and marketing professional with over 25 years of experience. This experience includes working for 3 Fortune 100 companies 2 of which were Fortune 10. I have sold jet engines, nuclear power plants, locomotives, companies...., and enterprise software. I once sold sailboats and high-end bikes too and that is what helped pay for my education.....

I was fortunate enough to advance and had the privilege of working for what at the time was the largest company on earth with 375,000 employees. If you recall neutron Jack I also had the honor of being screamed at by him on several occasions and surviving to talk about it.... Yeah I irritated him too but he liked me anyway....

In one of my last gigs I had responsibilities for training several thousand sales people to work and succeed at trade shows..... I believe that regardless of what is being sold we are still dealing with people and people will be people won't they.....

With all of my sales I never had anything returned, no disputes after the sale, and many of my former clients remain personal friends to this day.

I always considered my REAL boss to be my client and fortunately the companies that I worked for went along with this, although not always willingly.... because I produced.

Late in my career and while working as an executive for the largest of the large corporations I learned that job one for many of these behemoths is to at all costs avoid risk for the corporation. Job 1.1 was making money.... Very large companies are often viewed as having deep pockets and tend to attract the slip & fall mentality with lots of lawsuits often for reasons that lack merit by anyone's measure....

Back to the thread. Regardless of if anyone wants to admit it or not sales people tend to be a representation of the community at large in as much as this is who becomes sales people. As such I won't accept any assertion that sales people are inherently more dishonest than say doctors, lawyers, accountants, or Luthiers. People are people and all things possible are possible in any endeavor...

Not being pushy here and about ready to bow out and not visit this thread again but to me any assertion that one just wants to be the quintessential, iconic crafts person and endlessly toil in solitude only motivated by producing beautiful looking and sounding musical instruments with NO motivation to engage in any sales activities is often false... If you sell your guitars you are a sales person. If you let an outlet sell your guitars you still had to sell the retail establishment or what ever outlet that you used on the idea that your guitars will offer value to clients and profit to the outlet. If you accept money or something of value in exchange for your instruments or Lutherie services you are selling.

If you exhibit at shows I seriously doubt that you are there to only display your wares and that you would not entertain any opportunity sell a guitar or 2.....

When we ask a question on this forum we are selling someone on the idea that we are worthy of receiving an answer from someone in the know. When we answer a question on this forum we are also selling others on the idea that we are competent to reply. We are always selling - like it or not.....

So why not learn to sell well? Why not learn to avoid situations that will surely cost you dearly and more importantly harm your clients? If you exhibit at shows why not learn to work smart instead of banging your head against the wall and not recouping your costs for the show?

If your guitars are worthy and provide real value why not view what you offer as providing a service to those who benefit from your very fine efforts?

This is what I had on my mind when I posted in this thread. I no longer sell my services so what I was offering here was a gift. Just my experiences in having sold many high-dollar items to many, many folks with a resulting high level of client satisfaction.

David I greatly appreciate your comments that you sent my way - thank you.

My one concern though is the notion of my client and your client. I understand the courtesy that you are describing in letting each other know when a client of person A approaches say person B.

But you know in the world that I know and worked in all clients have every right to deal with anyone that they wish and just because you once sold them something does not make it so that you now own that client. Clients have full free will and what I always talked about when training sales people - personhood.

In some lines of work disclosing to someone else that you are discussing requirements with a prospective client could be a breach of confidentiality or worse if an NDA (non-disclosure) is in place.

It makes me wonder if the notification is as far as you will go or will some of you actually refuse to sell to someone because it is perceived that another builder owns that client? It all sounds pretty weird to me and I have visions of Federal District Court and charges of restraint of trade....

So you lost me with this notion of what happens if a client of Luthier A approaches Luthier B. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you so it would be helpful if you would let me know what you would do in a situation like this and if this conflicts with the clients full free will and privacy how that is addressed in a manner that takes in to account that the client's wishes come first?

Lastly... I also understand your evoking memories of the old days and how Todd and others endeavored to have guitar shows be classy presentations. Low or no pressure sales tactics and more of an artsy-craftsy feel and flavor.

If this was how you were most comfortable in participating it is entirely possible for a sales and marketing campaign to recreate this feel and flavor in how you sell your guitars today. Just a thought.

Thanks

I appreciate those who have shared their thoughts on this subject. I can understand most of the viewpoints shared.

Like Hesh, I must admit I'm surprised that any Luthier views a client as "theirs" or that someone else "owns" a client. I'm likely missing a point here as it would never cross my mind to call another luthier and tell them their client is "hitting" on me. What purpose does that serve? If I had purchased a nice guitar in the past and was possibly looking for a different guitar with a different sound for a different situation so contacted a different luthier known for a certain tone.......I would be miffed if the new luthier runs to the previous lutheir to rat on me. It puts me in an awkward position.....and it's none of the former luthiers business. If I knew the new luthier had done this, I would likely move on.

Of course, that is just the way I view things as I'm very independent......so my business is my business and no one else's. As said previously, I realize I'm likely missing a subtle point......but realize your potential new customer likely will not understand it either. Seems your relationship with the other luthier is valued more than your potential relationship with the new customer. The more I think about it, I don't see how that customer wouldn't feel betrayed......do you let the customer know you ask the previous luthier's permission to deal with him/her or do it behind their back? Awkward at best.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I've only attended a few shows, so my experience is limited compared to others.
I can see where Hesh is coming from, but IMHO in spite of his good intentions it is unsuitable to the endeavour.
I tend to share David, Rick and Al's outlook, although I'm much younger at this. I experienced the openness and willingness to share knowledge early on and I have to say it is pretty unique to this community, and something to cultivate and maintain in spite of the inevitable changes.
Everybody I know wants to sell guitars at those shows. It's easy, few are independently wealthy and those shows cost money.
But we're not selling dog food, vacuum cleaners or even religious dogma.
The calculated over-the-top mercantilism and self-promotion is relatively rare, but exists at shows. Personally I can't take it, it is the embodiment of all that's wrong with our epoch. It's like watching hippies going to Wall-Mart or women fighting in combat troops.
Last year at Montreal there was a guy a few stands from me spitting out so much BS that after 3 days of this I was glad I came unarmed.
But most of all, in spite of the ethical issue, it is useless.
The people buying luthier made instruments are relatively few, tend to own (or have owned) instruments from other makers and most know what they want.
What I noticed is, if somebody is interested in my (or somebody else) instruments. (s)he's going to stop at the stand, ask questions, play the guitar and so on. It's nice to have business cards, even brochures, magazine articles etc., but no amount of BS and marketing savvy will make a guy who thinks my guitars are not attractive change his mind.


Actually, this is not at all what I experienced. Everybody wants to sell guitars. But not at the cost of respect for peers, buyers and a certain outlook on human relations.
Arsty-craftsy is kind of pejorative and evokes more homemade than handmade… Nothing wrong with it, everything has a place. But can we present highly evolved designs crafted to almost perfection without sounding like malfeasants and acting like calculating bastards?

I know there are people who worship cars (thinking of car salesmen), but a guitar is a much more personal object. It embodies higher ideals perhaps, it produces sounds that become music, food for the soul. It is handmade, or at the very least, unique to the builder. It can be a status symbol as well, but I do not think we compete with factories. We couldn't. Thankfully, people who buy luthier guitars are buying something else as well. As David phrases it:

And I'd like to quote Rick to finish, because it's worth re-reading:

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Consignment deals are terrible.

The biggest conflict is your work is hanging on the wall at no charge and there are most likely lots of other guitars on the wall that cost the owner money (AND they know they are contractually obligated to buy more next month). Which guitars are the sales people going to push.

I have seen it with my own eyes how bad these deals are. I watched a shop talk a guy OUT OF A NICE HAND BUILT and put him into a Tak that was "just as good for a fraction of the cost". You won't want to be in that situation.

The only way to consider consignment is if every other guitar in the shop is using the exact same model.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Wow, lots of thoughts and directions in this thread.

First about shows. Here are some of my thoughts:

How many guitars to bring? I have taken as few as 1 guitar to a show. It works out fine. Just set up your table to make it look like you INTENDED on bringing one guitar. Before I started showing I saw another builder do this and he set up a very "pretty" table with a second cloth and a bonzi tree, and a very nice little organic buisness card holder. (I think it was Michael Bashkin, but I am not 100% certain it was him). The table was very inviting and it made you want to stop and check out the guitar.

You don't need swag But you do need a reason for people to stop, so anything you can use to help that process is good. Sets of wood, a Blurb book made to show your build process or more of your work, etc. These are all good ways to engage people in conversations. Think from the other side of the table. In a room full of nice, exotic guitars, why will someone stop to look at yours.

Selling is nice, but it isn't the point - I love to sell guitars, but even more than that I love the opportunity to make human connections with people who love and buy these instruments. I am not the kind of person who can juggle 2 or 3 conversations. I try to just be inviting and engage one person at a time for as long as it seems comfortable. For me this has led to many sales, some at the show, some commissions after the show. But even more than that, I have made some great contacts and friends at these shows. Just be relaxed and genuine. You don't really need to "sell" your instruments. Just be passionate about your work and (I find) that is often enough when the chemistry is right.


Take plenty of business cards.

Regarding an amp, I suggest you take one, keep it under your table, and wire it up with a set of headphones. I think this would be a must to get someone seriously intested in an archtop and a lot of people are reluctant to move the quiet rooms. It seems too much like a "do you want to buy this guitar" type question.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I think it was Somogyi who actually suggested to me the idea of only taking only one guitar. People suffer overload very quickly at these shows and a table with some spaciousness can be very inviting.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

My take on this is that the guitarclient/luthier relationship can be tenuous.
As a result, I think it is imperative to enter into this relationship with as much forethought (on both sides) as one can reasonably give. And this is why (and for a number of other reasons) I usually don't have an instrument available for immediate sale at shows.
Of course folks who come by my table at the shows are checking out my instruments and me as a builder, but I'm also checking them out, not as "buyers" or "tire kickers" but as whether they are someone that I can work with (and for) to produce an instrument that will suit their needs. The idea of agressively convincing anyone that my instrument is the one they want is, it seems to me, fraught with potential for problems.
The key I think is that the instruments speak for themselves and be clearly worth a potential customer's while. If they don't impress, no amount of talk on your part will change that

Hesh, I should have been clearer. Endorsee. The example I was giving without disclosing the builder or client was one where the player was an endorsee of another builder. That is a qualified relationship. The builder approaching this player knew full well of his established relationship with the other builder and nonetheless pursued it. I have fans of my guitars who are endorsement artists for other builders. I've never entertained the idea of breeching that relationship, and I think its in bad form for others to do so. Sometimes the relationship isn't so clear and if the player approaches me, then its a different thing. I know of several players who aren't endorsees but nonetheless play builder X's guitars exclusively. That too is an established relationship, just a bit different, and I stay away from those too -- again unless the player has approached me, and then I follow up with the other builder.

Agreed. As most of the guys who do these shows quickly find out, you see the same folks at every show, and everybody is on pretty friendly terms, if not fairly close.

It makes absolutely no sense to try and trash the work of others. In my mind it is far better to articulate what you bring to your own work, rather than trying to favorably compare your work to others. That is serious short sighted.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I am seeing some words batted around and think that a bit of diversion might be in order

Marketing <> Sales.
It seems sales gimmicks at shows are being confused with marketing. I would classify these as sales. Sales is the art of getting someone to buy something. Marketing is the art of getting someone to THINK something. There certainly is some overlap, but I think the distinction is important.

Advertising <> Marketing.
Advertising is a marketing tool, as is PR, SEO/SEM, promotional strategy, pricing strategy, etc. But advertising is one arrow in a much larger quiver. I really think marketing is the experience a customer has at every touch point s/he comes in contact with you. Its aim is to shape what people think about you, your work, and your brand.

I think most of what people are talking about being over the top are sales and promotions strategies used at shows. I am a professional marketer, and I too find some of these gimmicks to be distastful. I think they cheapen the work. But that said, I think guitar builders are horrific marketers (for the most part). I think there are many tasteful ways that we could all get more from these shows if we chose to.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I can understand not wanting to actively poach customers from other builders. But as a potential customer, I would be extremely offended if I approached you to build a guitar and you were running off and telling all about it to someone I'd previously bought from. It's literally none of their business.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Letseatpaste, let me give you an example. I cannot reveal the artist, but everyone on this forum would know who they are if I were to divulge. They had recently engaged in a signature model with another builder. They then approached me about building a guitar for them. When I informed them I would be discussing it with the other builder, their response was don't tell the other builder unless you're willing to commit to the project. It was a complete canard, and they were manipulating me and the other builder. This artist did this with several other builders. It's their right to conduct themselves as they see fit, but I will not. The artists was using the builders to bolster their own collection and doing so by asking for an artist deal with each of the builders. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your conclusion as I see it from a very different perspective.'

I don't contact the other builder if its just a regular customer and they've approached me. I do contact the builder when I'm aware of a previously existing professional relationship, and therein lies the distinction.

Yeah, if they're angling for a special discount or endorsement from you then that makes sense to be wary. I don't think it'd be out of bounds for an endorser to purchase guitars from other makers for their own personal use, though, and in a case like that I think it'd be out of line to contact the other builder. I see what you're saying, though, if they're angling for endorsement deals and discounts or freebies.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Thanks David - in the context of an endorsement deal I completely understand the concern.

Jeeze Brock when I hung up my hat from my sales career I thought that I had left the age old argument between marketing pukes and sales pukes regarding definitions of sales and marketing behind. Now you've gone and done it again - just when I thought that I was out you drag me back in.....

Marketing guys play with their surveys, advertising, and more in an effort to create demand for something. Marketing folks also may engage in activities designed to provide data as to if a product is meeting a market requirement etc.

Where sales folks get tactical and directly endeavor to address and fulfill that demand. Sales folks in time acquire the "one thousand dollar stare..." where marketing folks rarely leave their pink ivory tower and condescend to deal directly with clients in a sales capacity for fear of H1N1 transmission.....

Another example is Marketing folks are behind the commercials for a new drug that treats "restless leg syndrome" where sales folks may staff a booth at a drug trade show looking for show attendees who's leg is vibrating up and down, side-to-side etc.....

Nonetheless the common ground between marketing and sales folks is that everyone hates the accounting people.....

You're right, it is a generalization, but one I feel strongly about. It is just a broken and terrible business model. Again, the only way I could see that working is if every guitar in the shop was on consignment, or in a shop that was EXTREMELY slanted toward hand built instruments.

The reason for this isn't about the commission. The commissions on the instruments are all probably similar enough (in terms of percentage) to be a wash... In fact, the higher price tags that hand builts usually carry would probably sway the shop owner toward the hand built.

But, there are a couple of nasty wrinkles in this. The shop owner has CASH tied up in the production guitars which he needs to get back, and generally when a shop signs on to the big production brands they make a contractual committment to taking X instruments per year. So next month he gets a new shippment whether he has sold the ones he has or not.

This tips the scales severely away from the guitars he has no money invested in hanging on the walls. I didn't just watch this happen and a customer was gently pushed toward a Tak. I watched the salesperson really tear down the hand builder.

I am not saying it can NEVER work... I am saying it ALMOST NEVER works. The owner would really have to have a love and passion for hand builts, and even then I would have serious reservations.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

You watch a lot of movies..

I think marketing is much more hands on than you make it, but you're right in that marketing does not (probably should not) try to actually sell anything. I think with small builders the entire experience is marketing from the phone message on your recorder, to the way you position your work (your USP), to the look of the images on your web site, to the way your table looks at the shows, to how you dress at the shows, etc. Everything should be a conscious decison that all goes to support the image you want to project. If you can do this well you can get "known" for something (brand) and if you do it well enough and long enough it should help attract the kinds of customers you want into the conversations that lead to sales.

My only point was we seem to be getting these activities mixed up a bit in our conversations, and I have always found it helpful to think about them as independant functions.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Yeah big movie fan here, always was and just watched Inglorious Bastards last evening - fantastic film. Interestingly our hero Brad Pitt wears the red arrowhead insignia of the joint USA/CANADIAN 1st Special Service Forces. The "Force" as they were known ended up being the beginning of the Green Berets and was indeed a real unit during WWII that sustained over 100% causalities which is possible with reinforcement. They are also known as the "Devil's Brigade" and a movie with William Holden was made about their exploits. I find it interesting that the film makers elected to put Pitt in the "Force" because my dad was a very proud member of the 1st Special Service Force.

Sorry I digressed... again....

After reading Filippo's excellent post and the response I had a thought.

For those who do sell guitars on consignment or though other outlets where you are not directly representing your wares you should endeavor to meet, greet, and take to lunch any and all parties who might be in a position to be representing your guitars.

Educate them in what your value proposition (what makes your guitars special) is and how this relates to the competition. Advice the ownership of the store/outlet that you will also be educating sales folks in basic gutiar construction so that what you teach the sales folks in say a one hour presentation will help them be more successful in selling any of the guitars that the store sells. But of course be sure to have a compelling message as to why your guitars represent superior value to prospective clients.

Stores are always battling the same stuff different day mentality that we all sooner or later arrive at knowing that no matter where we go we are going to see the same old Martins, Gibsons, Breeds, Taylors, Taks and more.

As such if you do sell though a store your unfair competitive advantage (a good thing...) is that whom ever sells your guitars can claim some level of exclusivity in as much as you probably are not also selling though the local Guitar Center. To retail establishments exclusivity is a good thing.

But backing up a bit if you are going to sell on consignment and/or through stores make it worth the while of all concerned to move your offerings. Maybe even bonus the sales person $50 above and beyond what ever arrangement that you have with the store ownership.

Again if you are going to sell through stores it behooves you to do it well and empower the store to represent your guitars accurately AND enthusiastically - always.

In the end though the consignment deals are bad because of the cash flow problem in small businesses. Not profit. Sure everyone needs to make a profit, but the constant day to day struggle for small business people is cash flow, so the first order of business is get the money you have tied up back (often because you need it to pay for the next batch that are coming next month).

There really isn't anyone to "blame" for any of this, it is just the reality of the situation.

Clearly I have a strong opinion about this, but I haven't yet found anyone who has a sustainable consignment business model that didn't consist of working with shops that were either (nearly) entirely consignment driven, or have an owner that is just crazy in love with hand builts.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

That makes sence......I knew there had to be more to the story or something I was missing or didn't understand. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

David,
Hmmmm... I was approached by a prominent musican with a very similar request. It didn't take me long to catch on...



David, Alan or Rick,
Without naming names, what specifically have you found to be offensive or out of line at the guitar shows? We have been blessed by being around some really great people at the shows we have exhibited at.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Tim, I'm not here to be the arbiter of conduct. I've said all I care to about what bothers me about shows. I conduct myself the way I feel I need to for me. -- db

Is there a danger that because there is this natural desire to keep a certain 'atmosphere' as desired by the exhibitors, that folk forget what the customer or potential customer actually wants....

I have been on one occasion to Frankfurt, the largest music fair in Europe, and unlike NAMM they have public days - and you pay to go in - and the expectation is that you get to mess around with loads of new fancy stuff - manufacturers that dont satisfy the customers need to have access to the new and exciting instruments, very soon get the word spread and folk simply avoid their stand... as what is the point...?

OK so its different with what is a more specialist and niche market, made even more so that instruments on display are not just 'demos' but will hopefully be actually sold, and that means care and attention of instruments has to be respected... but surely the customer needs is what should drive these shows... If you know its a show where there are minimal sales, but many hands wanting a go... if it does not make sense to you, simply dont go, but if you are serious about establishing yourself, about making new and important contacts, about investing long term in your business and cistomers, then surely its worth it?