Official Luthiers Forum!

I just wanted to clarify in my earlier post agreeing with Rick Davis that I was in no way trying to say anything negative about Hesh or what he was saying. I was just agreeing with Rick's basic sentiment.

I've PM'ed Hesh and everything is cool.

No experience with guitars but with other woodworking products. Consignment is a conflict of interest. The store wants to recoup the money they have spent on the guitars on the wall, likely at a higher profit then the consignment. They have nothing invested, so the sale is not as important. I have seen my product used as a decoration when it was supposed to be consigned, no price tag and too far from the right visibility with in the store to really get any attention. My conclusion, other then not consigning, everything has to be specified before I leave the product. I want to know where it will be in the store, where and how the price is displayed, and usually set a time frame, if it does not sell in 3 months or so, I remove it. It is a better deal for the store, as you said, you take the risk. OTOH if it sits quietly in your home with no visibility, it is hard to sell and find new clients.

It is a frustrating topic for me, the store owners don't expect this with their other distributors, but a local walking in the store is expected to supply inventory for free?
Rob

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http://shastaguitar.com/
http://www.kalimbakit.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/robert.renick.7

Find the forums that target archtops and jazz guitars and start hanging out and be an ACTIVE contributor. If it is an active website pay for an add or help sponsor the website which will get you more exposure. Magazine adds are big bucks... not sure they are worth it if you are on a limited budget. NAMM is worthwhile to make dealer contacts if you choose to go that route? You have to get your guitars in players hands whether it is via dealers or shows. Once you get some sold to the right people, they will begin talking to their friends and word of mouth is one of the best advertisers [if] you have a good product at an affordable price. You can't expect to command $10K when you are a virtual unknown. Start out at 2500 and get some out there and gradually bump your price up when you start to get you name being talked about. If you have a good product at an affordable price the world will beat a path to your door. However, initially you have to swallow your pride and get guitars in the market at an entry level price. If you can't beat an Eastman in terms of fit, finish and tone why would I pay 2 or 3 imes for your unknown product? Not trying to be beat you down but just being honest.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Tim, you mentioned there were numerous reasons not to go down the consignment route and I wonder if you might elaborate just a bit on that. I've been developing a marketing plan along those lines and would truly love to hear your opinions on this.....bearing in mind I'll be doing electrics.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

I can beat an Eastman in every single measure, and if I can get you to play it, that question will evaporate.

Gordo

Re: forums
I participate in several of these Jazz Guitar forums as a player. Most of them are explicitly non-commercial except for the classified/exchange forums. So I want to be very careful about how I approach this angle. I'm trying to be very careful and not step on any toes until I'm ready to go public. I want to do this right.

Seriously only ever going to be an amateur hobbyist, so the selling side for me is not relevent.... but I can offer a customer perspective.

I have over the years purchased maybe +10 serious guitars, from both high end manufacturers and smaller builders and single luthiers. And naturally the overiding decison is how you feel about it, the personal choice of tone + playabilty + look etc ... but a very important part is how you are treated as a customer be it in rtail shop or show, or by a maker.

Firstly the serious buyer, will not want to stand around and hassle someone in a shop or at a show, when its busy - because IMHO if you are seriously interested who want some time to ask questions, try things out and generally have get to know either who is selling something to you or who made the thing - its about building trust, and as buyer when parting with several thousand $$$£££ etc you wnat to feel condident that its not just about the sale, but aftercare and service.

Therefore at a trdae show, as a buyer i would approach stands where I have an interest during quieter times and EXPECT to be given some time and no orange fluffy thijng on the sholder!

But here's the flip side. I have in the past often not known I am a serious buyer - I have not really had the funds, not really been in the market for a new instrument and just really as mentioned by someone else, been that annoying guitar nut who just wants to talk guitars wood and whatsoever because its of such a strong interest - only to have had time invested in me, given the oportunity to try various instruments (without a pushy sell or worse an impatient fluffy orange thingy ) and have been so overwhelmed by the quality, and beauty that you go from being a casual pain in the backside, to a genuine buyer - that syndrome that effect many players that you simply cant have too many guitars!

So you go away and work out which child you can sell to be able to a buy the thing of beauty - well you know what I mean.

So I would add a bit of caution when making the asessment of genuine buyers v tire kickers - and remember as well that those who appear on teh surface, bewildered, unfocussed and lost , might be just overwhelmed by the wonderful choice they have at shows like HGF - afterall, they ahve made the committment to attend - but when confronted by so many wonderful instruments its often VERY difficult to know where to start and that final purchase decision could well rest on how they feel they are treated.

Some dealers are better at this than others so I don't want to classify all dealers as being equal. Artisan, for example, does a fine job of showcasing small builder guitars that are in their shop on consignment. They handle each one with care as if it were their own and wipe them down after use which is the standard to which I measure others. I have been in a coupel other shops who "push" brand X,Y or Z" to make the most profit on or to make their quota sales for the month or quarter. The consignment guitars are hanging on the wall or worse yet, tucked away in a case not even in sight. If a commission based salesman has a much smaller profit margin on a consigned instrument which ones will a they lead you towards?

I had another customer who went into store and ask to play my guitars. The sales person actually talked my guitars down and led them over to a display of factory made guitars. They obliged the sales person then went back to play mine and ended up purchasing my guitar after all at the dismay of the sales tech.

I was running low on show guitars one year and asked for a consigned guitar to be shipped back to me at my expense. It had been in that shop for 2 months. This was a guitar store that was well respected with a huge magazine and internet presence. When I got it back it looked like it had been played on stage by Pete Townsend. This was the last straw for me in which I learned they had no $vested$ interest in my guitar nor did they care what happened to it when little Johnny rocker picked it up and started doing windmills on it. The top was dinged and scratched (to the wood) while the back had a serious case of buckle rash. The best part of the experience was you could tell that it had seen some play and exposure in the store. You just need to decide where you want the exposure and what risks you are willing to take.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I want to echo Rick's sentiments, as well as Tims. Shows are exhausting. I've often likened it to being stuck in a loud bar with the sibilance of chatter and melange of guitar plucking, standing on lightly padded concrete, while being up for the customer all the while being without a cocktail.

The shows are about the customer. Period. The fact of the matter is that there are always going to be attendees that fall in the categories of lookers, buyers and fence sitters. You don't know whether someone is going to be your next customer. Yes, we all get tired when it appears that there is interest but no action. As a practical matter, very few guitars actually get sold at the show. Some builders do sell guitars. But more often than not your participation over time validates your place in the market and engenders a comfort level with the public and this combined with your building prowess generates sales.

The show is there for people to meet you and have a tactile experience with your work. In this light, there are no tire kickers, but potential customers -- they may not be customers immediately, but they may be. And as Rick said, they deserve your time and courtesy. There is a balancing act between those who monopolize your time when other people come to your table, so you do need to dance some, but with courtesy and respect.

Contrary to opinions previously expressed, these small guitar shows are different than your typical trade show. There's usually little swag, just your work on display at your table, your good nature and time to win customers over. When Todd Taggert started the Healdsburg Guitar Festival so many years ago, it was at a small venue with only 60 or so builders, and held at the Villa Santa Claire. It's a far cry from NAMM which is most definitely a trade show.

There's an intimacy that the shows have tried to capture to match the very nature of what we do. I feel Rick's concern that parts of this discussion reflect an approach that those of us who have been at this a long time find distasteful.

Expect to invest $5k to do a show, and expect that the instruments will come home less pristine than before they left. And expect to need a week off after you return.

Thanks for the replies.

I was in the aviation business for 15 years manufacturing composite propellers. There were two shows; Oshkosh and Sun 'N' Fun that were MUST attends and numerous other shows that were second tier. If one didn't not attend the main shows one wasn't really in the aviation business as far as 80% of the customers were concerned.

My problem is there is little in this world I hate more than doing shows. Maybe dentistry...but that's usually only an hour or two with a few days of diminishing pain. Shows last a WEEK! I hope this doesn't mean I can't be in the guitar business

But for my edification, and considering the fact that I'll be making electric guitars.....can anyone call out two or three shows that are a "must attend" if one wants to establish himself as an institution?

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Sorry that some find some of the ideas that I offered distasteful and if you knew me you would know that I agree with you and also find anything resembling high-pressure sales distasteful as well.

The reality is that as everyone and their brother get into building and selling guitars the good-ole-boys-and-some-women-too are going to find themselves increasingly surrounded by some new folks who were not there in the early days of the HGF sharing with Todd his vision of representing a community with class and integrity.

Instead and as mentioned you may find yourself annoyed by someone who understands in advance that they are there to get sales or die trying.... You may find yourself wondering why the folks who try to stand at your table only do so for seemingly a few seconds and then migrate toward the noise and excitement leaving you holding your.... business cards....

As an attendee of these shows and with even some experience working a table or two I also agree that there are differences between some of the guitar shows, not all...., and a typical trade show. Bottom line though is that in time you may also wonder why you are retaining your own ability to approach sales and shows as you always have but regardless others seem to be flying home with far less to carry and a pocket full of cash.

If you agree that you should always when building your guitars do the very best that you can or do it over until it is the best that you can do why then will you settle for anything less than your very best when it comes to marketing and sales?

Sure your very fine guitars will still be world-class even if no one ever purchases them and very few folks know your name.... At least it not distasteful.....

Just wondering....

Well said, Rick. Thanks for this.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Again from a customers sperspective its tricky - If you are a guitar nut yet not yet in the income stream that affords the luxury of a fine handcrafted instrument, it does not stop you yearning, craving even and the opportunity to immerse yourself amongst such wonderful instruments at a show and talk to the builders of these fine creations and even 'have a go' is just a great experience... and from a customers perspective, they WILL remember where they were engaged with and who gave them time and patience - these are the potential customers of teh future, who in a fews years time when tehy have the money will remember who gave them the time ...and who did not. - This is the long term investment that may take years to bring in the dollars, but is just as important.

But I also appreciate what Hesh has said, in that given that the costs involved in taking part for small single luthier operations are not insignificant, there is a natural need to try and filter to some extent to ensure adequate possible time with those who have the money now... to cover the short term investment.

My approach would be totally honesty - explain it to customers in exactly that way. ASK if they are looking to buy/order now or in years to come and treat as appropriate. If its busy on the stand, those who are not really serious now, should be invited back when its quieter, a promiose of a strum or two and fix a time, so that they are not an inconvenience but an opprtunity for longer term custer investment at a time when its convenient etc...

I think most guitar nuts who 'might' become customers at a future date would love this and respect it - those that dont are not really guitar nuts anyway as they are turning down the opportunity.

So I do think there is a way that you can use such shows to look after both - the short and long term investment. And as they say, someone who is treated well will tell someone else, someone who is treated badly will tell 10 others...

As a practical matter, guitarmaking has expanded exponentially since the advent of the internet. It's been both good and bad. There are tons of hobbyist builders, and many more trying to be pros. Those of us who have been at it a long time have seen some of the changes, and as Rick and I have previously posted, not all to our liking. We are expressing a loss of the sense of community it once had universally, and currently and unfortunately to a lesser degree.

The "open-source" guitarmaking that erupted through the internet is disturbing. When I go to a show and I see someone out and out copying someone else's designs and pawning it off as their own, I'm not pleased. We can all discuss the issues of patents and trademarks, but within the community it is a decidedly different matter. It is more than a faux pas. It's bad form to use someone else's ideas and concepts without so much as a nod in their direction. The shows were intended to communicate the intimacy of the guitar and its builders to the public. To educate them, and to let one's work stand on its own. We don't go after someone else's clients, unless the client comes to us and many of us have the courtesy to tell the other builder.

The issues you raise, Hesh, are not new. But the proposed methodology for dealing with them are new, and to some of us who have been around long before there even were shows, find them unsavory.

I suppose the sorts of changes that Dave and Rick (and I) deplore are inevitable. But the 'open source' that lead to it goes 'way back to the formation of the GAL and the later split that lead to the rise of ASIA. Thirty five or forty years ago, nobody knew very much, and we sort of had to band together to pool our little bits of knowledge if we were to get anywhere. The result has been that American lutherie has gone from being a poor relative to, arguably, some of the best around. For many of us, that sort of sharing is a habit that won't die.

Along with the less formal sharing has come the rise of schools, such as Roberto-Venn and Redwing. Those folks have gotten very good, and the students coming out of them are producing some nice looking work.

With that sort of openess, it's easy to see why many of the younger folks might think that it's all fair game. It's also certainly true that there are very few ideas that have not been tried at some point in the past, so that when, for example, Manzer makes a 'wedge' guitar, or Novack comes up with the idea of fanned frets, it's possible to find 'prior art'.

The internet has, of course, pushed all of this forward much faster than before, but the directions were clear twenty years ago. So, for that matter, was the trend toward increasing automation, first with the plethora of jigs and fixtures using routers, and now with CNC. Another trend that is certainly accellerating is that of division of labor: folks farming out inlay, neck and bridge carving, finish work, and so on. Nothing new in that, Dante wrote about it, but it does change the one-man-shop that was the norm when I strated out into something different. Is it really that important for a builder to master _all_ of the skills? I mean, just because _I_ think it is....

So, we're victims of our own success, in a way: we weren't careful enough in what we asked for, and we got it. Now we have to live with it. I guess we old dogs will just have to hope that there are customers out there who can appreciate the depth of knowledge and experience we bring to the table, or we're in trouble. I couldn't sell ice in the tropics.

Al, just to be clear, I'm not chiding the GAL or ASIA for the community that they created; rather the issue of currency when it comes to certain designs and ideas. Yes, we can find evidence of prior art on certain things like the wedge and fan frets, but before Linda and Ralph, no one else was doing them. They brought it to the fore and polished it, and I believe deserve a certain recognition for their creativity. When someone shows up at a show with an exact replica of a Klein (and I've seen it at Healdsburg) and is pawning it off as their own work, I have a real problem with it. It's a very different thing than someone building Martin or Gibson copies that have been in the public domain for a reasonable period of time.

My phrase of "open source" is derived from its use in the computing world where everything is owned by everyone. I don't necessarily believe in that model because while its useful, it doesn't reward the individual effort. Kevin Ryan, for example, worked very hard to figure out how to make his bevel. It is a synthesis of Grit's armrest with his own ideas. There are bevels all over the place, but how many folks actually bothered to contact Kevin about its use, much less give a public nod in his direction. I know of several prominent builders who will not use the wedge, fan frets, armrests, precisely because they were creations of others. They are friends with these other builders, who would otherwise gladly give their blessing, but they nonetheless choose not to indulge themselves. Open source guitarmaking, like downloading, is from a certain point of view a bit like nicking someone else's work product.

I think not - it's called selling - oldest profession on earth...

Your comments about not providing attribution are a totally different subject and have absolutely nothing to do with anything that I was addressing. I hope that you are not implying that anyone who wants to approach sales as a professional endeavor is also prone to steal the ideas of others - that would be a very irresponsible assertion.

There are folks here who are interested in what I was saying and have contacted me off line. They want to know about how to coordinate a show effort for maximum impact bringing together announcements, after-hours events, business cards, logos, attire with branding, banners for the front of the tables, working the table from the front, brochures, mini-concerts, sponsoring players and some other standard fare stuff that organizations with some training have been doing at shows for decades.

I'm sorry that you find any of this information distasteful - this thread is about doing shows not about doing shows as so-and-so says you may do shows.

The existence of prior art shows just that: that it's not a new idea. If anything, it means that Novax and Manzer should be acknowledging the people who first came up with the idea. There are certainly issues with copying truly unique design and aesthetic elements of a builder, but there aren't very many functional construction details that aren't ideas from 20-150 years ago being re-implemented.

Case in point, though nobody stuck their name on it:
When John Watkins started selling blind-slotted fretboards, a lot of people thought it was his idea, and it was because he didn't know of anyone doing it before him. Kevin Ryan also independently came up with the idea, around the same time as John. Ron Thorn was doing it for years before either of them, though they didn't know that, either. There's a good chance that someone else, probably from the Teeter camp of fretting, was doing it with a routing jig before Ron Thorn did it on his CNC. I can place at least a decade span between the first person using the technique and the last one I spoke to who'd thought they'd invented it.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Sorry if this is continuing to take this off track but credit is an interesting subject and I'd love to hear more opinions.

As someone who has shared and borrowed ideas, I find the subject quickly gets complex. For instance, I posted my design for an access panel with no visible hardware on the MIMF many years ago. I still get occasional emails from people asking if they can use the design. I love it when people ask and when they are grateful for my sharing but I posted it because I wanted to share it and see other people use it. That's the idea of forums as I see it. If we all participate, we all have the potential to gain more than we give. But then should I give credit to whoever the first person was to use an access panel? I don't even know who it is. And if it's like most things, there probably isn't total agreement.

I take the view that if something is published on a forum or through GAL, then those folks want people to use it. I currently use some ideas borrowed (with my revisions) from Rick Turner and Mike Doolin. I give them credit on my site and at places like Healdsburg when appropriate but I never really asked them directly. Rick shared his ideas for his carbon fiber buttresses here and Doolin shared his in GAL. I can only assume they want people using them and I know that both of them have built on the ideas of others as I have with theirs.

But I agree with David that there are lines. Copying or even modifying something that has not been specifically put out for public consumption is over my line. Copying someone's entire esthetic is too.

What are your lines?

As for marketing, that's definitely a hot button issue for me. I am so averse to the hard sell that I will pay more for something rather than deal with a salesperson I don't like. But I've also seen a lot of evidence of the benefit of going a little out of my comfort zone when it comes to selling, particularly when my comfort zone is almost zero.

The real problem I see is that when the bottom line becomes the only measure, people become sorely tempted to push their own ethical envelope. I've had some serious discussions with a few different friends who are excellent at sales and I always come away feeling like they are more willing to compromise their ethics for the sake of a sale than I'm comfortable with. But I also come away with some good ideas that I can work on without feeling slimy.

I'm really enjoying hearing all the different angles on this topic and appreciate the respectful disagreement.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Always great to hear the voice of real experience. Thanks to all the professionals that have posted on this thread. Hope it continues to happen.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I think this is kinda a funny discussion....

Most Luthiers out there (Especially new ones) are competing against Martin, Gibson, and Taylor.... Trying to convince a buying public that there is something so much better out there for the same price compared to a mass produced Factory instrument... Most players I have met have NEVER EVEN PLAYED a Luthier guitar....

And how many can a really productive 1-man shop really make in a year -- 50-70? I bet the average is more like 20 or so....

Think about this... If you got 10 sales at a trade show... How long would it take you to fulfill that order with your current backlog? 2-3 years? More? Is it realistic to think that the Average player would be willing to wait 3 years for a Guitar? Most won't.

They go over and talk to Ervin... and Holy Cow -- 5 years? Then they go over and talk with someone else.... Holy Cow -- 3 years and Hey... Look at that Orange animal on my shoulder?

And so on...

And then, maybe there is this new guy whose guitars seem to be pretty nice, and feel good, but I have never heard of him... But.... He will sell me this one here for about the same price as a D-28.....

But.. Never mind all that.....

Let's face it -- Word of mouth is pretty powerful... and the Pro Guitar Building world is still pretty small....

Get a customer who dearly loves his Instrument -- He tells 1 friend...
Get a customer who feels like you did him wrong -- He tells EVERYONE in the whole world!

So... for the Experienced Luthiers out there....
Do you really worry too much about the Loud Mouth New Guys out there?
Are they honestly taking business away from you?
Probably not... 90% of them don't make it past the 1st few years!
AND.. You experienced luthiers probably have LONG waiting lists anyway.... People know who you are... and they drool over your instruments...

It sounds like quite a bit of the stress is the giant rush into the shows... and then most shows really aren't conducive to actually running a Guitar through its paces.... and then you aren't getting any paying work done for a month or two in the run up to the shows....

Thanks

John

dberkowitz wrote:
"Al, just to be clear, I'm not chiding the GAL or ASIA for the community that they created; rather the issue of currency when it comes to certain designs and ideas. "

I agree. I've published stuff in both 'AL' and 'Guitarmaker' because I wanted it to get out there.

I have what might be a funny attitude about acknowledgement, though. Ralph took out his patent before he knew about the prior art, and readily concedes it now. Since he made the changes he did for different reasons, though, I'm perfectly willing to give him credit. Linda insists, despite the prior art, that it be 'the Manzer wedge', and that predisposes me to ignore her claim. Maybe I just have trouble with authority.

Back in the day it was a case of the rising tide lifting all the boats. As hand making became more credible, we all gained. I don't think the current handmade scene would be possible without the sharing that has gone on. In a sense it's like some of the other 'movements' of our youth: because of their hard-won successes young people these days can afford to ignore the movement if they want.

So, as I say, we got what we asked for: 'handmade' guitars are now a recognized market niche. It's no longer a case of: "Gee whiz, PEOPLE make those!?!" So, naturally, the focus has tended to shift more from the mere fact that it's a craft product rather than an industrial one, to that of who's craft is the best. Now that our bona fides are established, it's a matter of creating differences that we can use to sell our product, rather than seeing some other guy sell his. This might not be what we thought we signed up for, but it's what we've got.

Actually, my pet peeve in that line is the focus on an 'industrial' definition of quality, rather than a 'craft' one. Again, in retrospect it's probably inevitable, but that doesn't make it any easier to take.

Kent Chasson wrote:
"As for marketing, that's definitely a hot button issue for me. I am so averse to the hard sell that I will pay more for something rather than deal with a salesperson I don't like. But I've also seen a lot of evidence of the benefit of going a little out of my comfort zone when it comes to selling, particularly when my comfort zone is almost zero."

I agree: I tend to walk when the hard selling starts. If I didn't despise it so much, I might be a better salesman, but there are other reasons.

"The real problem I see is that when the bottom line becomes the only measure, people become sorely tempted to push their own ethical envelope."

One of my students works for a software firm, and has said that he could be their top salesman if he wanted to, but he won't make the compromises.

I'm sure this is a real gray area. I suspect, and expect Hesh to affirm, that the very best salesmen are those who do, in fact, adhere to strict ethical guidlines. I always like to think, with Jefferson, that "TRUTH is mighty and will prevail...". There is always the issue of establishing what 'truth' is in a field that's defined by subjective impressions, and in which science has made only small headway. There are a lot of folks out there selling what I call 'leprechauns': metaphysical or pseudo-scientific explanations of how these things work. Some of them think the same about me! One problem there is that doubt is an essential trait in science, but it's a lot easier to sell stuff when you're sure. It's probably the main reason why I'm such a lousy salesman: when push comes to shove, I have to admit that I don't understand everything, and the other guy makes a nice guitar, too.

I just hate to think of our shows going the way of, say, the consumer electronic bashes. My student assures me that some companies would give away free sex at these things if they thought they could get away with it. I hope we can avoid the worst excesses, but, as has also been said:"Nobody ever went broke underesimating the taste of the American public".

I've tried to believe that and actively looked for examples and haven't found them. I'm sure they are there and Hesh is probably one of them but I have to believe those people are the exception rather than the rule. But it's probably a matter of degree too.

As for truth prevailing, what kind of time horizon are you looking at

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

You bring up some really good points...

I think a bunch of this boils down to -- How can you be appropriately prepared for a Trade Show? It isn't about hiring Strippers... it's about appearing Professional, Organized, Competent, and having an awesome Product for sale!

Remember.. Folks WANT a Luthier who an awesome "Technician" -- and I really think many folks are put off by "Sales Guys".... You aren't buying a Fax Machine that is sold by 50 companies at this same show... You are buying something UNIQUE that isn't sold by Anyone Else at the show!

An interesting thing I have noticed -- The most successful sales people (especially of expensive stuff) are almost *NEVER* the hard sell sorts of folks.... They are the ones who are able to read and feel out buyers "Needs"... They learn how to ferret out what the buyer needs to hear or do or try out to be able to just get over the hump -- To buy what they really want to buy....

Hard sell folks end up with a ton of Returns and a ton of Bad customer will -- They forced their product on someone who really didn't want it... That doesn't work well in a very small, very tightly knit community with a very expensive product that has a *Very* long lead time... like it does when you are selling Magazine subscriptions door to door... .. Sure, you may weasel me into a $20.00 1-year subscription to Popular Mechanics... but just try doing that on a $10,000 sale that has a $3,000 deposit and a 2 year wait time! Just watch me look into the checkbook and suddenly find that I only have $50.00 left this month and all of it going to Groceries!

Now... Back to the OP's dilemma with the pseudo-customer... Who knows what actually happened... Maybe she didn't have the cash available right now... Maybe she has something else going on in her life that worries her about tying up a bunch of cash on an instrument? She may never actually tell you the truth... (Husband/kid out of work, New baby in the family, Gotta pay for something related to the kids, big event coming up in life... Who knows)

What I do know is this:
If she Successfully Recorded with the Guitar... and it Spoke to her... She will be back! Maybe not in 3-months... Maybe not in a year... But.. She will be thinking about one of your guitars *Every time* she hears those tracks. All you can do is make sure that guitar was the one that when she hears those tracks -- She says "Oh Yeah, Now THAT was a Guitar!"

Thanks

John

Hesh, I want you to know that I didn't mean my comments to somehow find themselves directed at you. Marketing is a useful tool. For those of us who grew up in this cottage industry, some of what we distain is the over marketing that some engage in. Again, I'm not suggesting your marketing techniques are problematic. John, we're not worried about losing sales, but rather that we don't like the tone that it sets. It's not something that was part of the community we grew up with and so we find it distasteful.

Some of us yearn for at time when our work was our marketing. We yearn for a time when people's clients were respected. When someone else's client contacted us about a project, we had the courtesy to contact that builder with whom the potential client has had a prior relationship. We yearn for at time when at a show when a musician with a known relationship with another builder was allowed to peruse without being advanced in a blatant shill attempt to draw them into a project. We're old fashioned. Guitarmaking isn't rocket science. Some folk's marketing is so over the top that its farcical. I'm pretty coarse when it comes to someone asking what sets me apart from someone else's -- I'm not particularly interested in the comparison. My guitars are the way they are because of how I resolve the equation of what a guitar is. That equation comprises all the internal deliberations derived from study, experience and gut that direct my decisions as the guitar is built. I'm not interested in blowing smoke up someone's skirt. It's not the hard sell of a marketing scheme, but it is me, and its honest.

Hesh, my comments were not directed at you, but in the context of shows they are tangential reflections of the over the top marketing and behavior by some that us older farts find objectionable. I'm sorry if you took my comments to be directed at you, as they were not. They were directed, generally, at the approaches by newer members of the community to shows, marketing, fair use, and the like that leave many of us with a bad taste in our mouth.

One thing that could be helpful is asking the potential buyer for feedback on the instrument-
takes the pressure she might feel to buy off for the moment, and lets her know also that
you're in this for the long term and making an instrument that suits a fine player's needs is
paramount for you. Though someone might say initially that "it's perfect..", usually there
are some things, maybe niggling but maybe not, that are in the player's mind..

This approach worked for Greg Smallman, who makes John Williams' guitars exclusively
now- he initially asked JW "what do you like about your Fleta, and what would you have
improved if possible" (paraphrase).. just like in any relationship, if the pressure's off the
potential buyer is more likely to move toward your instrument, if it truly suits her.