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Ok guys, I'm starting to realize that as a niche maker, (archtop jazz guitars) in a small market, (New Mexico) I'm needing to get more exposure to a broader market. There just aren't enough jazz players out here and the word of mouth refferals I'm getting are good but I think I need to put some more effort into the marketing department as this has always been my shortest suit.

I'm considering doing some shows in order to get my guitars in front of a broader audience, or more properly in front of a lager audience of the kind of buyers i need to be in front of, but I see some hurdles and I've got a few questions for those of you who are out there doing the roadshow bit. I do believe that my guitars are of very high quality and compare very well against the work of more established better known makers. I'm not the least bit afraid of comparison.

So here goes....

How many guitars do I need to bring in order to create a proper professional display setup? I currently build only 2 models, a 16" and a 17" but with different options for acoustic, P/U's, finish, bling level etc.

Do I need to have an amp/amps on hand?

I don't have a brochure, is this a necessary item?

As most of the more attended shows seem to be on the coasts, what about travel? Do you guys just load up the Suburban and drive? Is it even conceivable to fly in for a show, shipping guitars and stuff through another means, and if so by what means?

What king of expense level should I factor in for the whole show deal, or is the question so show specific that it can't be answered? I'm trying to figure out if the sales would be likely to overcome the expenses.

In a nutshell, in your opinion What are the absolute must haves for a reasonable show presentation, what are the nice to haves,how do you travel, and what other suggestions would you have for a builder considering doing some shows? Also, are there any shows on the horizon which you would recommend investigating?

Thanks in advance,

Gordo

Hi Gordon,

I've shown at Healdsburg, with one coming up, Newport/Miami. I am utterly convinced of the usefulness of these shows. Even IF you don't make a sale, the exposure--as you are saying--is well worth the effort. Rick Turner's thought on this, IIRC, is that these shows are some of the dues one has to pay for success.

Travel arrangements will be dictated by your time and budget. I would have loved to have the leisure to drive, but we had to fly for time's sake. So we shipped ahead our guitars (took 5). Then there's the stands to display them. (Yet another box to ship.)
The table will cost several 100 $$, and you'll want to sleep and eat somewhere. If you go to Healdsburg, the cost of things on the West coast will surprise you.
I think three to four archtops would be a very fine presentation...not too ostentatious, not too spartan. And vary each model--of course.

Brochures are helpful in the sense that when people visit your table, pick up a brochure, and go back to their hotel room, they'll have something to remember you by. "Oh yes, I remember him. Gotta go back tomorrow..." That sort of thing.

We took some t-shirts w/ our logo and did quite well with that.
Sometimes they just want that little bit of a souvenir.
And thus, they are paying you to advertise your product.
So take some of those.
An amp...hmmm... not sure. The venue in Healdsburg was loud, and to properly hear an instrument one had to go outside, or to a designated listening area. I would think that an amp might be considered a nuisance by others of your peers who are straining to have their own guitars heard.
Perhaps a small amp at your hotel room? That way a customer could drop by to hear the guitar's electric voice if they were that interested.

If you sell a guitar, you've paid for the trip.
But even if you don't sell a guitar, the exposure will be worth the money spent. And like you say, you need to reach more than New Mexico.

Hope this helps some,

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Thanks for taking the time to respond Steve, I was afraid that nobody was going to have anything to say. I'd love to hear from anybody else who's been down this road. Some of my questions may sound a little naive, but the fact is, that I've never BEEN to a guitar show, let alone set up at one. I have wondered how it is possible for a prospective buyer to even hear the instrument he is considering buying over the background noise of a large show.

You mentioned flying in and shipping guitars and stands etc. Who do you use for that type of thing? UPS? Fedex?

Thanks,

Gordo

Yeah, I meant to mention that Gordo.
I used (and still do) FedEx. And since the Healdsburg festival is run by LMI--who has a business partnership with FedEx--it just made things even easier. H'burg is run so well: LMI will manage a great deal of the shipping for you, as you ship to them. They deliver the boxes, and then ship them back for you when it's over. Very convenient.
Now we did actually take one guitar on the plane, which was quite nerve-wracking, but successful.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Interesting thread....thanks Steve for chiming in. Hope other exhibitors will comment.

_________________
Dave
Milton, ON

Not a guitar show exhibitor but I have been to the shows, worked probably over 300 trade shows in my life, and used to teach trade show selling to the staff of two Fortune 10 companies that I once worked for. As such even though my knowledge is not guitar show specific I understand a lot about how people interact at shows....

Brochures are a tool just like all things that you bring to the show. You may want to consider two levels of brochures, one level of very nice materials that you are proud to have representing your wares and one level of inexpensive to produce materials that you are happy to give to anyone and even keen to trash any leftovers when breaking down and moving out.

The good stuff gets kept behind the table and is distributed to "qualified prospects" once you have indeed qualified them.... It's the stuff that you hope makes it back to the attendee's hotel room or home and gets read the next morning in the bathroom.... Hey, I warned you that I was going to speak about the psychology of trade shows....

The not-so-good brochures are left out on the table even when you are not around. Use these to terminate conversation when you no longer want to speak to someone.

Now to back up a bit here your sole mission in life at a trade show is presumably to sell your wares and/or further brand awareness of your guitars hopefully leading to a future sale of your guitars. As such you at times have to act like a Tasmanian devil of sorts endeavoring to spin in circles and when busy with multiple folks at your table spend some time with ALL of them in the few seconds that you will have before someone walks away. You are looking to qualify folks short and sweet and when qualified you turn on all in your power to address their questions, concerns, objections, etc and hopefully give them an honest presentation of your guitars and of course yourself too.

Back to the 2 levels of brochures.... The reason why you would want a lower level of materials, cheap to produce and no big shake to hand out is so that you can use these materials to psychologically terminate dialogue once you have qualified someone out. This frees you up to engage another person and attempt to qualify them.

Have you ever seen the colorful little creatures that have self-stick feet and are handed out at trade shows? Folks wear these on their shoulders along with a plethora of other swag that is distributed at trade shows. There is a method to this and most of these give-aways are intended to mark the recipient as not being a qualified prospect so therefore when others also working the show in their booths encounter an attendee with a orange fuzzy animal on their shoulder it indicates that this person is not a prospect, a looser of sorts, a waste of time....

Yep, I know it sounds harsh, shallow, and is fraught with potential problems and all of this I admit is true but this is what is happening behind the scenes at trade shows where the organizations are sizable enough to have received dedicated trade show booth staffing training....

But... there are some important lessons here that anyone working a show can learn and use at once. First you pay good money out of your own pocket to do these shows and as such just showing up and placing 4 pretty guitars on a table is not good enough. Addressing everyone and being sure that you speak to everyone is also not good enough.

Instead you want to work smart and be in a position recognize the real prospects for what you offer and then capture their info and address their concerns. The only way to do this is to not get caught up in talking to the janitor, cleaning lady, other builders, etc. Not that other builders are like the cleaning lady unless of course if they have a feather duster in their own booth....

When you seek to terminate dialogue with someone so that your time can be used to address someone else thank them for stopping by or express that you hope that they enjoy the show while at the same time handing them one of your crappy brochures using ONE hand to hand over the brochure. The person will thank you, take what you are offering usually, not always, and without knowing it be dismissed and walk away. Try it - it works!

OTOH when you have a qualified prospect come out in front of your table and hand the good brochure to the person using TWO hands and then either continue to engage them in conversation or ask them if you can get some contact information so that you may contact them at a later date. The quality brochure handed with two hands imparting the idea of "value" seems to invoke the quid-pro-quo mechanism in humans and they are less resistant to providing you with information about themselves....

Remember that there is an opportunity cost to everything. Time spent with one prospect is time sucked from another prospect. Learn to get a group dynamic going too where your prospect becomes the player for your table who's playing attracts others to listen and then work that crowd too.

Invite current clients to stop by too and when they do encourage them to play your guitars. Excitement generates excitement and someone playing a guitar usually will suck in others to listen and watch unless, of course...., the tune is not Smoke On the Water...

I remember being at the HGF in 2007 and Tim McKnight's table had several of his clients there and one was playing a McKnight guitar. Of course I went over there too, met Tim and had a great conversation before someone stuck a dang orange fuzzy animal on my shoulder.... Just kidding on the fuzzy but the point is that excitement generates excitement.

I hope that something here helps and in the very least the next time you attend say the auto show and some grease-ball sales puke engages you in small talk and then attempts to stick a fuzzy little animal on your shoulder remember to smile for me when you punch them in the mouth....

Wow Hesh, that's a lot to chew on. Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply I've been to quite a few trade shows in the context of my cabinetmaking business over the last 25 yrs and recognize some of the dynamics you describe. I'm currently dealing with the issue of qualifying buyers right now... word of mouth is getting around, and I'm currently dealing with some referrals along the lines of " my buddy X says you're making some fantastic guitars and said I really need to come by and see you". A lot of these guys seem to be run of the mill guitar nuts who want to come to the shop, and hang around for hours, talk guitars and see if you want to work on their beat to s*** Takamine for free. On the other hand, I've made contact with some very worthwhile people this way. One thing I notice is that the quality of the prospect seems to correlate directly with the quality of the referrer. Hmmm.

The problem is being a nice guy, how do I get rid of the obviously "unqualified" prospects without being rude. I've got stuff to do. I don't have all afternoon to spend with someone who obviously isn't at least a solid potential buyer just because he loves my stuff. Also, how do you deal with the qualified buyer who loves your guitars, says all the right things but you can't get them to pull the trigger? Case in point... potential client is a very advanced professional player, just moved here from NYC, came to me accompanied by a first rate heavyweight refferer ( he called first and asked if he could bring them by) Player loved the guitars and she, her bassist husband and my heavyweight referrer all sat around and played for a couple of hours. I'm salivating as this seems to be going very well. She's got a gig that night, and a recording session the next day and very meekly asks (as though she were expecting a "no") if there is anyway she could try the guitar in question under real world conditions... I send her out with a brand new perfect guitar for a weekend test drive, thinking I've probably just closed the deal.

Long story short, She brings the guitar back on Monday, saying she loved it, wanted to talk more but had to run right now... It's been a week and a half, no word. She had called during the test drive to ask if it would be ok for her to change the strings to her preferred set, I said "sure" go ahead. When I looked the guitar over after return, there were some scratches in the previously flawless headstock lacquer, from a casual string change, the kind of thing you'd never notice on your own guitar, but something I couldn't let stand on a brand new for sale instrument, I pulled the tuners, polished out the scratches, and restrung the guitar with my preferred flatwounds.

When I sent the guitar out with her, I'm thinking 85%-90% probable sale, now I'm thinking maybe 25% chance... Is this just a case of a super qualified tire kicker? My guts tell me she truly loved the instrument ( I had tears listening to her play it, OMG ) but can't quite stretch through the price point ( she is a musician after all). She would be a trophy as a "representative" out there, but I can't afford to subsidize every talented musician just because it's good exposure...

What's my next move here guys?

Gordo

Another observation.. it seems as though when high level players play my instruments, they usually give the guitar a quick visual once over as if to see if it has the right parts in the right places, and then they start playing. they seldom look at the guitar much after that. It's all about playability and tone.... ( an area where I feel my guitars excel)

The guys with the magnifying eye loupes usually cant play, and don't buy. I believe that the workmanship, materials, and attention to detail on my guitars is excellent, and the eye loupe guys seldom find fault, but as a class, are much less likely to buy.

Anyone else notice this?

Gordo

Gordo wrote:
"Anyone else notice this?"

OH yeah...

One violin maker says that violinists look at fiddles through welder's goggles.

On the other hand, it doesn't matter how good the thing plays and sounds if they won't take it off the stand and play it. You need to give them a reason to do so. Given the current high level of fit and finish in this trade you really have to watch that aspect: you don't want to stand out as the guy with the dull and amateurish stuff. OTOH, because everybody is at that level that, in itself, is not a reason for somebody to try your guitar. It's just a reason not to if it's not right.

Doing shows is a way of establishing your bona fides. I have been doing one local show for close to thirty years now. One year I skipped it for some reason, and the next year, when I went back, people said: "Oh good, we thought you'd died or something!". So, you don't necessarilly _get_ points for going to a show, but you _lose_ them if you don't.

By the same token, the first time might not get you anywhere, but as you become a regular people will come in looking for you. The ones who aren't armed and dangerous (just kidding!) will often buy something. I've found with that one show that if I have a 5-string fiddle with me, I'll usually sell it.

I'm not the king of show sales by a long shot; maybe I'm too polite and spend too much time with tire kickers. Still, I have made sales based on every show I've attended. It might be a year or two later, but people get back and say: "I saw you at Newport (or wherever) and now I'd like to order something". Even with the show I've attended for all those years, I never count on an on-site sale, but in the long run I think it's worth the time and money to do it. If I do sell something on site, I consider that gravy. And, as often as not, the folks who come back later with an order are the ones you thought were tire kickers at the show. They were - then.

I had the videos of the Newport festival running this morning as I was doing my chores, just listening not watching. Perhaps it was the fidelity of my system, but I kept hearing those subtle buzzes of action being too low for the players style. My thought on this would be to perhaps have one guitar set up a bit higher for the players who use a ton of attack.

Hesh, great post, that info is really applicable in many areas of interaction.

While it is important to qualify and use time well, I found in my custom woodwork business, you never know, how many times I thought I had a 90%er that never calls back, and the 10%er who buys something small and then goes big down the road. You still have to play the odds with your time and brochure resources, the 10%ers are in the game, but there are 0%ers who will waste your time if you let them.
Rob

_________________
http://shastaguitar.com/
http://www.kalimbakit.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/robert.renick.7

I've only been doing the shows for the last several years or so.
Newport Miami in 2008, San Francisco GFA 2008, Ithaca GFA 2009 and will be heading to Austin TX for the 2010 GFA.
One to two guitars (demos) flying along with me using the Clam by Case Extreme. My wife has been going with me on these trips and it really is necessary to have one person per guitar if you are using the Clams.
There is enough extra space in the Clam for stands, tablecloth etc. as well as clothing and I usually have a photo book of my work (bored wives at the shows tend to like to flip through this as their husbands try out yet another guitar) which I stow in my carry on . I know shipping is an option but re-packing at the end of an exhausting show just seems less appealing to me than bringing instruments along (albeit fewer).
Attendance at these shows really does have a cumulative result whch is hard to guage initially though I did get a couple commisions from last year's Ithaca GFA which were directly tracable to my participation. I feel that at this point I need to be out there to compare my work head to head with other makers who are more established in the marketplace, especially as I've been building as long or longer.

Getting folks in your shop, at least initially so you can size them up, is a great goal and something that I do all of the time. Thursday nights I have a shop band of sorts now that play in my shop and of course drink and have fun too. All the power tools are unplugged and since I never drink I am the designated sober safety person....

Even though you may be cutting the nut slots on some crappy import to help the player play more easily this service IS appreciated and it also helps to educate the player on how to differentiate between a crappy guitar and a great guitar.

Besides being a Loothier is a very solitary endeavor and I welcome the human contact in my man cave/shop and I can't tell you how many new songs I have been shown too as a result of my Thursday nite jam sessions.



I would simply be honest with folks and if you are busy and don't want to deal with them let them know this, politely. I had a home office situation for many years and had the same issue with friends who wanted me to play golf with them and I had to tell them that just because I am home does not mean that I am not working...

You set the stage when folks come over and instead of trying to work with them there instead stop working and give the visitors all of your attention. After 10 minutes or so tell them that you need to get back to work, if no opportunity has reared it's head... and get back to work. Folks will understand when it's time to leave and if not that is why I eat a lot of Mexican food for lunch....

Qualifying is an art and something that takes both practice and skill. Ask yourself what "qualified" actually means to you and then ask someone else the same question and you will see what I mean....

To me the term "qualified" means that someone has the money, time, and inclination to purchase or contract for something similar to what you do or provide in a time frame that is acceptable to you.

The guy that you are describing lacks the inclination and in my definition is not qualified.



Well you did what a lot of folks would do but you also gave her a great reason to not purchase a guitar from you - she could get the use and experience of one of your very nice guitars my friend for nothing so why then would she ever want to pay for it???? See what I mean here?

Skin in the game is important and our task, should we accept this mission.... is to find ways to have our qualified prospects have some skin in the game so that your goal of securing the sale is also the goal that your prospect has.

We are offering real value here, one-of-a-kind guitars that should IMHO play, sound, and look as good or better than the usual fact*ry suspects. AND.... yours are unique too and it is this uniqueness that permit us to attempt to get what the market will bear.

Guitars don't rot and in fact a year or two on the wall with some test players may even open the thing up more so that you don't need any stinkin Tone-Rite fish pump motor....

Remember your dating days? Without getting too explicit here at times things that may have been.... special.... were withheld until you declared your intentions often with a valuable, tangible symbol of your l*ve.... offered as a token of your appreciation for the other person. My point is that before you got what you wanted, sometimes...., you had to have skin in the game....

So that's the key to all of this - your prospects are not really prospects unless they want something like what you offer in the time frame that you wish to part with it and for consideration (money...) in an amount that you would be happy with.

The biggest and toughest thing always in teaching people to sell is to get them to understand that if someone is not a real prospect they are surely a suspect and you need to treat them as such.....

BTW selling is the oldest profession on earth or one of them and it need not be dishonorable - ever. Never, never, never intentionally misrepresent your offerings, never lie, never cheat, and never take advantage of anyone. If it looks too good to be true it is - move on....

Before I close for now on this topic consider thinking about the kind of opening question that you can ask in a few seconds time to a moving past you person in a trade show environment. This question should be engineered to offer something of value and in return you receive information that qualifies the person in or out.

It's how it's done.

Oh yeah before I forget Mario P. does not do shows - he doesn't need to spend the money on a chance, get sore feet, risk the H1N1 flu from the germy attendees.....

Although I agree with much that has been said about shows being a necessary evil.... I also think that it is very possible to buck the trend completely and not do shows...

Consider this - when dealing with prospects do you want to be in a room with 100 of your competitors all also trying to sell to your prospect?????

I don't know, If it were MY prospect probably not. But conversely, I would love to be in a room with 50 people who were considering dropping 10 grand or more on a guitar from Benedetto, Marchione, Monteleone, Ribbecke et al. Yes I would love to be in a room full of THEIR prospects!




I'm not sure I follow you on this one, so please help me out here. What I was trying to do was a variation on what the car salesmen do, "Why don't you take this baby home tonight, show it to the Mrs., See how you like it?" He knows if you drive that shiny new deluxe strassenkruiser for a day or two your old ride is gonna look like crap and you'll do anything not to have to go back to it. I guess I also earnestly thought that someone who's going to plunk down thousands of dollars on a new guitar should be able to check it out thoroughly. I may have misplayed this, but my sense was that once she had played it for the weekend and heard the recordings, that she'd sell the family jewels before she let go of it. It's not my sense that she was looking for a free "joyride". If it were, I'd have never let the guitar leave my shop. Something tells me that she wants to OWN this guitar but something is getting in the way. How do I find out where the problem lies. I would really like to have her out there playing MY guitar, I'd be willing to make some kind of discount to get this done, but I don't even know if that's the stumbling point.

So how do I find out where the deal-blocker lies and get past it? What would a real salesman do in my position?

Thanks,
Gordo

Lots of good advice above. I would only add that you might want to consider attending a guitar show before you invest the time, effort and expense required to be an exhibitor at one of these events. I've done that in the past (unrelated to guitars) and I found a little scouting trip to be very helpful.

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George :-)

I've just returned from displaying for three days at a bluegrass-y festival. I'm burned out, hungry, and a mite tired of G chords. My attention has been drawn to how we builders market ourselves because of one newish builder's very aggressive marketing, which was much in evidence at the festival.

Truthfully, I intensely dislike the direction this is going. Over the last twenty years, the luthiers I've met at Healdsburg, Newport-not-Miami, Montreal, the festival without a name Al Carruth mentions, etc. have not acted like a bunch of aluminum siding salesmen. They've approached everyone with respect. Yes, of course, the young kid or poverty-stricken student doesn't get as royal treatment as, say, a well-known virtuoso or collector, but everyone who shows up and is interested in the instruments deserves our respect and attention. When you objectify the people who come to see and play your work, identifying them as "qualified prospects" or "tire kickers," you should expect them to treat you as a stereotypical salesperson in return. And the luthiers who approach shows with this sort of marketing mindset are the ones who disparage others' work behind their backs or make unsupportable claims about their own. They're not part of the lutherie community I came to know and love.

Shows are the places we get to see and hear what others are doing, to find out what's really happening, and to present our best work for open inspection. I've received more valuable and constructive criticism from players and builders at shows than anywhere else. Virtually all the great and dedicated builders do shows, letting it hang out there for praise and criticism from the public and their peers alike -- for me, it's not a dues to pay but a fantastic chance to learn more, see how high the bar really is, and perhaps win some new friends (and customers). Closing the deal is a lot less difficult if you're thinking in terms of improving the relationship between builder, instrument, and player. If you see it as a zero-sum adversarial situation, honestly, I don't think you will be a valued member of the community.

Rick (old hippie) Davis
Running Dog Guitars

Well car salesman, generally speaking which I hate to do... are the worse and while we are at it there is also the drug dealer to consider their model too.... The drug dealer will give you the first rock of crack.... for free, get you hooked and then the rest you have to pay for.....

Not advocating being a drug dealer, car salesman or an aluminum siding salesman here and again what I said was to always be honest, don't lie - be yourself.

When you purchase a new razor you will often get the first couple of blades free with the handle - hence the drug dealer sales model.... is used also by huge companies that we all may do business with.

Where some folks make the cut on a sales team and retain the job and profession and others may not, commonly is this notion that I brought up earlier and it has to do with how we define selling and the process of sales.

I said "your prospects are not really prospects unless they want something like what you offer in the time frame that you wish to part with it and for consideration (money...) in an amount that you would be happy with."

All to often people believe, wrongly I will add, that sales is the process of selling something, even something that may not be wanted... to someone else. A good salesman/person can sell anything to anyone.

Nothing is further from the truth and I have seen hundreds of of junior sales folks get canned because they could not understand this.

Sales is selling what you are offering to folks who are buying - plain and simple and another way to think of if is that the best sales folks in time become little more than order takers because they are so very busy with the administrative functions of the sales that they have to date that they no longer have any time to prospect and fill the pipeline for the next iteration of writing orders.....

So Gordo you felt very strongly that this guitar was right for this prospective client and did all that you could to make it happen. But the reality is that it didn't happen regardless of your very fine efforts. You want to know why it didn't happen and I sense that you still want to make it happen - correct?

If so get in the mindset that it may not happen but that you will try one last time to make it happen. Contact the prospect and if possible invite them over to discuss your guitars. During this discussion, it could be on the phone too but I think that you would prefer to talk about your guitars while the prospect is actually holding and playing one correct? Find out if she has the will, means (money), and the timing (meaning right now) to own one of your guitars. If any of these elements are missing she is not likely to buy and there is nothing that you can do to change this. Sure you can give her a guitar but then you are not selling it and receiving any compensation.

My point is that no matter how much we may believe that our products are PERFECT for someone else they have to believe it, want it, have the money to become it, and wanna do it right now or soon.

Selling is not convincing the janitor that your Jet engine is superior to a Rolls Royce it is the art of knowing that you have to be dealing with someone who is actually going to purchase something like you do in an acceptable time frame and for a price that works for you too. No offense intended about the janitor example - I had a guy work for me once who actually got into the office early every day to call this company and spent a couple of hours on the phone with who he thought was the right guy. In reality he was talking to a janitor at the end of his shift lounging in the executive's office and sipping on his scotch..... Somebody got fired and it wasn't the janitor....

So at the risk of Rick's wrath since he has no love of stereotypical sales people... here is something else to consider. I knew a woman who was at the top of her sales game. Her methods were NOT mine and we disagreed intensely where I thought that she was shallow.... Her motto when considering sales was this:

"Some will, some won't, so what..... next..."

She is referring to the numbers game where we work to qualify large numbers of prospects knowing that mathematically the possibilities of finding the true prospects increases with greater numbers. Doesn't this sound like a trade show to you???? Hoards of players who just received that income tax refund check/direct deposit knocking each other down to get to your booth first and purchase all of your available show guitars?

The numbers game is pretty common, it's harder and you have to work harder but it can work given that you still do a great job of picking your venues AND it suits your personality - it's not for everyone.

In my way of thinking you can try one last time to get your guitars into this woman's hands but if you have to do it for a price that you don't like in time or she just is not going to commit suck it up and find someone else. Remember what we think is a perfect situation is often not even close and the trick is to find folks who want what we offer, now, and can pay for it. You are not selling anything to anyone - you are setting up your shop/store in the path of qualified buyers and then hopefully taking orders.

Lastly regarding Rick's comments an obnoxious sales person sucks and will be a real turn off to everyone... The most successful sales people that I have ever known did not look the part or act anything like the person that Rick described. Instead they were all soft spoken, got along with others really well, understood being part of a team i.e. a team player, and were generous to a fault. They didn't push ever but they did use their minds to help overcome perceived barriers to making deals.

But most of all they respected the word "no" while also recognizing that WHO we direct our efforts toward is the most important thing that you will do when attempting to sell something to someone.

Trade shows are acknowledged high-pressure venues where many companies will pull out all of the stops, shoot their annual marketing budget, and do all in their power to advance their brand or die trying. It's a place where being aggressive is often the norm and again it's all designed to get results.

It's no surprise to me that someone got aggressive at the show that Rick described. But I don't think that it should be a surprise to anyone else either - trade shows exist so that folks may sell their wares. When in Rome..... If the focus being sales oriented bothers someone perhaps consider the GAL or ASIA conference as venues where the brotherhood is more important than commercial activities? Just a suggestion.

Did you give any thought to that all-so-telling question that I asked you about in which you could qualify someone in a few seconds?

I'm a complete non-pro, but I'm an expert at wanting to buy things.

It seemed like to me that the time to ask for the sale was before her upcoming gig and recording session, when she was likely to want the guitar the most. Let her play that guitar in your shop as long as she wants, but keep that carrot dangling out there that she needs to commit if she wants it for her gig and recording.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

First off Hesh, thanks for all the time and thought you've put in on this thread. I have read and re-read your posts several times. I realize you are being Socratic in the the way you pose this question, and having chewed on it, and chewed on it, I keep ending up in the same place. Most of the potential questions I come up with are so overt as to be almost (or completely) rude...

"Excuse me sir, are you considering spending thousands on a Jazz guitar today?"

Some less so...

"Good afternoon Ma'am, I see you are looking at my archtops, what kind of guitar are you playing now?"

I've mulled this over a fair bit, but haven't had the AHA! moment I think you're trying to elicit. I'd like another clue if you have one.

I realize that for a very long time I have been struggling with the now de-bunked notion that if I build a righteous product, it will sell itself. I know this isn't true. It can only "sell itself" if someone knows it's there, gets it in their hands, and as you very succinctly point out has the means and the inclination to buy it. By nature, I'm a craftsman, an artist if you will, not a salesman or promoter. I also know as a businessperson that If I can't sell it in adequate numbers, it doesn't matter how good it is because I'm out of business. I also realize that the salespeople know things that I don't, and that it behooves me to open-mindedly ask for their advice, and seriously examine it. It doesn't mean that I need to change my nature and become some kind of hollow promoter. That's not likely to happen, but I do know that currently, If I am to advance as a businessperson, I need to ideally increase orders to a point that equal or exceed my ability to build. Hopefully this will create a comfortable backlog of orders that will allow me to operate more smoothly, improve my process, and profits.

This examination prompted my initial question, and subsequent questions. I need to create more sales opportunities, and from those opportunities, book more work. What's the path forward from here, and what do I need to learn to advance. It seems to me that the builders I watch and admire who have been successful in this craft long term have all developed a mechanism to get their names, their products and their brands "out there" for lots of potential buyers (and dreamers) to see. I'm hoping to learn some of what these guys have learned about the business end of the craft, and am grateful for their advice, and the advice of sales professionals. What I don't know is... a lot.

Thanks again,
Gordo

Being an artist....I spent a portion of my early years (trying to get recognized) doing art shows of all kinds. I can't speak to luthier questions as I have never done a luthier show...but have been to a few as a player and potential buyer.
My experience...is have something up front for someone to touch and play is imperative. A demo model. Put your prized pieces back out of immediate touch by people walking by. You then can determine who gets to the good stuff.
I ALWAYS (as a player) looked at craftsmanship FIRST and then proceeded to see if sound and action followed. I figured a hand crafted guitar needed all elements to qualify for a sale. If a guitar looked bad with mediocre attention to detail...I figured not that much attention was given to proper construction, bracing or playability.

I would also have a enclosed display case for your prized possession guitars. I can't tell you how many times (when leaving my table for a few minutes) would wander behind the table to mess with tools, intricate carvings and other items I didn't want touched.

Brochures are handy. Keep it simple. Business cards for sure.
Being at your booth is the best policy. I know it's tempting to spend the day chatting with all the other booths, but being there to answer a question or 2 by a potential buyer is sometimes the SALE. If your lucky enough to have a spouse along, that can give you the best of both worlds. My wife actually sells my work much better than me.
Shows are getting VERY expensive now days...and I choose not to travel and do them anymore.....but I am comfortably busy without doing them. But...I'm not trying to sell guitars either. At least not yet.

Kent

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Wood Creations by Kent A. Bailey
EXCELLENCE IN SCULPTURE, CARVING, LUTHIER, ARCHITECTURAL MILLWORK AND DESIGN

http://www.kabart.com

Rick

I don't know you personally but if I'm ever in the market for a custom made guitar you'll be one of the first people I come to.

Bingo!!! This is what I meant by this woman's incentive to purchase one of your guitars Gordo went away when she was able to have the use of one of your guitars for free. This is also what I mean by wanting to have the prospect have skin in the game too - she had none. Jon gets an A+ in the marketing class that he probably won't wanna admit in any company that he just had.... No worries, it usually doesn't get on ya...

Now I know that you guys are going to be quick to say that you know nothing about sales because you are engineers, craftspeople, artists, etc but the truth is that you all are actually experts at sales!!! All of your lives you have been consumers and purchased things including... guitars. As such you had your own check-sheets and issues that were important to you in what you needed to see, hear, or feel as well as understand before you would get off your own dimes so-to-speak.

It's that simple - treat people and approach people as you would hope to be treated and approached yourselves. Be sincere too and if you don't have the personality to be outgoing, kind, and genuinely concerned with how others are doing perhaps consider enlisting a friend or family member to help you out at shows.

Think about it - we are Loothiers... and as such what is the expectation of the pubic for what we will be actually like? The public may think that we are going to be grey bearded craftsman with hair growing out of our ears as we toil with our chisels carving away the excess like Michelangelo to create an heirloom quality instrument. The CNC machine and auto-cad is probably not part of the vision.....

My point is that none of us, including me are supposed to be marketing/sales pros and as such what we are left with is that when you strip away the labels, and I hate labels...., we are just people with all of the diversity that any group of people may have. We come in all sizes, colors, levels of education, etc but we share a common love for building musical instruments.

As such when working shows just be yourself unless of course if you are a creepy, nasty, rude, person who rarely showers and hates people - then perhaps enlist the assistance of someone else to help you work the shows?

Now for that all so telling question that you might want to ask folks at your next show that will, by design, let you know very quickly if you need to dig deeper with a particular person. First off the question is best when it is something that you are genuinely comfortable asking AND honestly concerned about. So it will vary with different folks.

For me since I have been a sales puke all of my life with no regrets and see myself as providing value, never doing anything untoward in a business situation, and I like people, usually.... I am comfortable asking someone who is glancing or looking at my table at a gutiar show this "do you see anything that you would like to try/play" said with a friendliness, smile and sincerity. To me we are selling musical instruments which I personally would always wanna play before considering purchasing so it's that simple to me - a step toward taking one of my guitars home is to have the prospect try them out.

Since folks who attend guitar shows are human they will often know in advance that life may have some strings attached and that trying one of your guitars may require you to talk to me further. So ask the questions before they leave your table but not when they have not yet had a chance to be looking at what you have on display and hopefully looking with interest. Timing is important.

Have a place set-up in advance that requires no effort for the player or you to set-up and also does not take the player off the beaten path - no one wants to sit in the middle of a crowded hallway and attempt to play a guitar. But also you don't want the ask folks to follow you to some undisclosed location either - might run into, well never mind.... And remember that having someone demo your guitars may attract others to be interested too especially if they are a good player.

Backing up here my question "do you see anything that you would like to try/play" cuts to the chase does it not? The attendee may say no your stuff does nothing for me or no I am not looking to purchase a guitar or no I play archtops and you only have flat tops. No matter what the feedback you are that much further ahead because you have just had the opportunity to perhaps qualify someone in or out. If they are qualified out your need to dig deeper with them is eliminated and you can engage someone else. The second best thing to getting a sale is to be rejected in as much as you now know that whom ever rejected you is a waste of time....

If by chance someone does want to try one of your guitars they are either a prospect or want to get off their feet and play a guitar but maybe not purchase one. Keep a keen eye out for the people watching them play, listening, they may be your real prospects wishing to not declare themselves.... yet.

Anyway what ever question that you decide to be YOUR question should without being rude or forward provide you with information and not put the attendee on the spot. By exhibiting your wares you are providing value and as such you have an entitlement to ask folks if they are interested in what you have/do. Fair is fair. Accept a "no" as valid and when you get a "yes" drop the world and be all over it until the transaction is complete and your new client is as happy as can be.

I'll bet that if you suggest some opening questions to me that I would find that there are many correct answers - remember your objective is to determine if anyone is there to actually purchase a guitar or strike up a relationship leading to a later purchase of a guitar like what you provide for a price that you are good with and in a time frame that you will still be Loothing when they get off the dime.

If you have felt uncomfortable at trade shows in the past - good - a trade show is NOT a natural environment and has all manner of dynamics that make for a very stressful time for some. But presumably you have spent money to be there, perhaps worked your butt off to have something to show and you even may be bearing an opportunity cost in as much as when you are at the show you can't be building the commission that a real, paying client is waiting for.

Engaging prospects in conversation that can be telling is hows it's done and how you converse should be within your comfort zone.

Thanks Hesh, that summed up all of the theory very nicely. I see what you were driving at. I like the practical examples, pretty easy to grasp, very direct and helpful.

As for my current prospect, well I guess I'm a crack dealer now. You've had a taste of the forbidden fruit, first one was free, after that you gotta pay. If this sale is supposed to happen it will, if not, I'll take my lessons from it and move on.

I've got some phone calls to make now,

Gordon

Congrats because you have come to the realization of what your market is (jazz type guitars). It is imperative that we builders define our market scope. We might be able to build anything with strings but we need to focus our efforts in a single direction to be a success IMO. Arch tops are a very narrow and small market share of the acoustic world so you have to target shows that will have arch top and jazz guitar players there. Montreal and CAAS are the two shows that immediately come to mind.

If you build two models then take two models to display. Even though you take a pristine guitar to a show EXPECT some dings and scratches by the time the show is over. You are there to put your product into peoples hands. Beauty is only skin deep so you must be able to allow them to play your wares to make a sale. They will either like it or not, period. I saw a builder who had a 3 sided Plexiglas barrier around his guitars in Montreal a few years ago. He wouldn't allow anyone to get near his "babys". Cut the strings guys, these are wood tools not members of your family that no one is allowed to touch.

Amps are not allowed at Healdsburg because it is an acoustic only show. Same goes for Newport. Montreal provides small booths with amps to allow folks to demo your guitars without disturbing the show atmosphere. These are high caliber shows and not your typical swap shop or my amp is louder than your amp garage sale venues.

You should have a website, provide business cards with your web address and pertinent contact information to hand out to folks at a show.

We fly to all of the shows because we are not close enough to drive. If we were close by then we would drive. Shows are EXPENSIVE to do. We average between $3-5K per show when expenses are tallied up. If you have a legitimate business license then the show expenses are 100% deductible, except for food.

We ship all guitars and show gear to the US venues at least two weeks prior to the show. Some shows will charge you a fee to handle the boxes to and from the site based on weight and the current union labor scale which can be quite EXPENSIVE so be prepared for that expense. If you go to Montreal you will need a passport. We carry our guitars and ship them as luggage to Montreal. One year they were lost for two days before they showed up which can be a bummer of flying with guitars.

Some builders omit shows and go the NAMM route. They develop a dealer network and sell guitars to dealers at a significant wholesale price reduction. Some do the consignment route which I would discourage for numerous reasons. We have done both and prefer to sell direct to the consumer. Which ever way you go its important to draft a business plan and stick to it. We designed a business plan in 2000 and have adhered to it and now we have a 3 year back log on orders even in these tough economic conditions. There are many paths to success but at least you are doing the right thing by exploring your options.

One last thought on shows. You will talk with a few thousand people over the course of a weekend. You are there for one reason, to sell guitars! It cost you a LOT of money and IMO a successful show is measured by selling at least one guitar to cover your costs of being there. You will encounter a LOT of builders throughout the course of the show. Some will tell you up front they are a builder while others will pretend to be a buyer but just want to pick your brain or talk shop. Learn how to quickly recognize these people and learn how to politely limit your time that you spend with them. I like to talk shop but when someone is wasting valuable show time you may go home without making a sale which may be a significant financial setback unless you happen to be independently wealthy.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Thank you Tim, that was exactly the kind of response I was hoping to get from my original post. You really covered all the bases. If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that you hope to both sell your show guitars, and book future commisions for your "order stack". One of the things that has become very clear to me is how small a slice of the overall guitar buying pie the guitars I build represent, and consequently how much I need to be very focused in the way that I market them. Obviously I'm trying to get my guitars in front of as many of the "right" kind of buyers as possible, meaning those who are looking specifically for this type of instrument. I'm grateful for the recommendations of shows to investigate, and would welcome any other ideas you have vis-a-vis targeting these types of buyers.

I have had numerous offers to consign guitars with dealers but have declined to this point based primarily on my gut reaction that the situation is imbalanced. I take all the risk. He gets some high dollar eye candy on his wall, but when the shredder kids grab it to see what Metallica sounds like played on an "old fashioned" guitar, It's my guitar that suffers the ravages of their belt buckles, picks, and grubby fingers, not the dealer's. Also none of the dealers who have asked me to consign do a significant business in this type of instrument. My hunch is that my guitars could sit on the wall a long time in this environment, just too few of the right kind of buyers. There are some dealers mostly on the east coast who seem to specialize in this type of instrument, and I've considered making contact with a few but haven't done so yet. I'm curious, if you have an idea regarding the typical wholesale/retail markup on hand built instruments? I'm trying to get an idea if there's any money left for the builder in this kind of relationship. Obviously some guys, including some big name guys do it, but I feel I need to know a little more before I can even make exploratory phone call. I'd love your take on this.

Website is in the works, good professional photography needs to be done first and I'm working on that. The same photography aslo provides the basis for brochures etc. I've got a limited promotion budget so I'm trying to be as frugal as I can while being careful not to scrimp in the wrong places and create a non-professional or casual appearance.

I'm curious, if you've got a minute, about where you feel you get the biggest bang for your promotional dollar? Shows, website, printed material, sponsored players etc. What are your thoughts on dealers? and are there any other ideas or advice you have that might be useful?

Thanks for taking the time to respond,

Gordon

Gordon Marts Fine Guitars
Santa Fe New Mexico