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A unique ritual in this religion involves a holy fasting until death; it is called sallekhana. Through this one achieves a death with dignity and dispassion as well as no more negative karma.[39] When a person is aware of approaching death, and feels that s/he has completed all duties, s/he willingly ceases to eat or drink gradually. This form of dying is also called Santhara / Samaadhi. It can be as long as 12 years with gradual reduction in food intake. Considered extremely spiritual and creditable, with all awareness of the transitory nature of human experience, it has recently led to a controversy. In Rajasthan, a lawyer petitioned the High Court of Rajasthan to declare santhara illegal. Jains see santhara as spiritual detachment, a declaration that a person has finished with this world and now chooses to leave. This choice however requires a great deal of spiritual accomplishment and maturity as a pre-requisite.

The four arms of the swastika remind us that during the cycles of birth and death we may be born into any one of the four destinies: heavenly beings, human beings, animal beings, (including birds, bugs, and plants) and hellish beings. Our aim should be the liberation and not the rebirth. To show how we can do this, the swastika reminds us that we should become the pillars of the four fold Jain Sangh, then only can we achieve liberation. The four pillars of the Jain Sangh are sädhus, sädhvis, shrävaks, and shrävikäs. This means that first, we should strive to be a true shrävaks or shrävikäs, and when we can overcome our social attachments, we should renounce the worldly life and follow the path of a sädhu or sädhvi to be liberated.

Now me I once when young and crazy hunted rattlesnake bare handed, as a sort of medicine path thing with a Paiute buddy. The fact that my dinner could have killed me was a sort of religious experience. My point is it take all kinds...

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

You are quite correct Howard - I was in error to raise a Godwin's Law flag on your post - but don't you think the reference to Hitler in your reductio ad absurdum response is just a little inflamatory? Surely there must be other examples that would have sufficed (a GW Bush reference for instance?)?

Indeed, this was not one of your posts I chuckled at. Incomplete education and the resulting unthought-out moral and ethical positions people/s take have caused more strife in the world than I ever care to think about. Let's hope this thread doesn't become another victim.

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

No you didn't, what you did do is made the illogical jump that my type of thinking is the same type of thinking that led Hitler down his path. Just so we are crystal clear.

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Disappointment is an empty box full of expectation

I'm crystal clear, and my point is logically valid. You don't understand a reductio ad absurdum. It's in the form of a modus tollens argument: If p, then q. Not q. Therefore not p. In this case, if moral relativism were true, we could not say Hitler was wrong. But we do say Hitler was wrong, therefore Moral relativism is not true. Parts of the argument were implied informally; this isn't a logic class.

Sorry you took it to mean your thinking is the same type as Hitler's, but that was neither what I intended nor what I said. The argument was directed at an ethical theory, not at you. Nor do I think Hitler relied on moral relativism. But notice that by your ethical theory, I would not have done anything wrong no matter what I said about you, because it was OK by my beliefs, and you claim that what is ethical for me may not be ethical for you, and we can't say what is right or wrong for someone else.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Eh?
(And I thought forum rules said no cussin'..... )

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Howard there is a problem when applying symbolic logic to ethical arguments because in the end it boils down to the fallacy Consensus gentium. Formal logic only deals with the form of an argument.
That is why I brought up Jainism they believe the only truly ethical thing is to have no effect at all., to leave no echoes, it does not matter if those echoes have been defined as good or bad.

????

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

I don't know where to begin here, so I'll stop.

I apologize to all for trying to argue about ethical reasoning on a guitar forum.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

C'mon, those have been my favourite posts in recent history! It's nice when an actual expert speaks on a topic.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Howard ethical reasoning is interesting with many theories. Lives are lived by these theories. Each one has characteristics, and each one has flaws. I don't find myself drawn to any of them, I believe as a society, for practicalities sake we tend to move more and more toward relativism all the time.

Any way I feel ethical reasoning falls in the logic tree under the heading critical thinking(informal logic) and if you take it to the ridiculous/extreme and then apply formal logic, all theories of ethical reasoning that I have been exposed to at least in my mind have holes.

Howard if there is a flaw in my thinking I enjoy learning, if I misspeak I can take criticism. I really do have concentration problems and don't mind if the holes in my thinking are pointed out. If I offend please forgive, I discuss to learn.

act and rule utilitarianism, egoism...
are they better than deontology, relativism or just different...

sort of what I was trying to say in my jumbled way

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in DC? I suspect almost no one walks out of there thinking in relativistic terms.....

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

+1

I want to chime in with some elegant statement exhibiting my harmonious views (with non-relativistic ethics), but I am outclassed. Howard, have you ever considered becoming a professor (nyuk nyuk nyuk)?



Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

Sanaka, we will just go back to our caves, and turn our amps up to 11.

Honestly I think we all muddle along as best we can. I have not studied ethics in depth. I have passed a symbolic logic class.

Would I have spoke out on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the moving of a Japanese neighbor to a "relocation" camp?

Would my ethics say right is right or would they have been influenced by culture and time(relativism)...

In logic the argument

all men are green
K.O. is a man
K.O. is green

is valid in form.
It is easy to say they are but in actual practice,
ARE MY ETHICS INDEPENDANT FROM MY SOCIAL CONDITIONING
are anyone's

GIGO

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Off to the Ocean to get some ab and eat it may throw away the shell. Then off to the forest to shoot a deer and then the river to catch fish. Will kill a few plants to also. Can't wait to complete finish area with big exhaust fan to suck the nitro out of the shop and smell out of the house. Looking forward to warm weather (not this global warming crap) and mow my lawn with old mower have to have a fan on to blow exhaust out way to see ahead of me. Then get in my SUV and cut the muffler off and drive all over.

Wife is mad because I threw everything green out of the house, which include her favorite couch. Used to be my favorite color, now hate it.

What for the most part this is doing on a guitar forum I don't know and this point beginning care less. If have a problem with using ab for trim woods and other natural things in guitar building, quit or make them in plastic or other materials. I guess that starts another ethical question then.

Sums it up! While the first two paragraphs were intended merely to define the point of perspective to this paradox the last paragraph has the real meat to it.

A couple of observations:

I have noticed that when issues of "ethics", "sustainability", "green" practices and environmental concerns come up in posts here, that there are always a few people that seem to be squirming in their boots because (I suspect) they feel guilty about not taking action or taking a stand on the REAL side of the fence where their conscience is sitting. Some of them feel the need to immediately jump into hyperbolic mocking mode to express their opinion that the "tree huggers" or person presenting an ethical/moral dilemma is a misguided fool or a wimp or simply wasting the time of the forum readers. I'd point out that this is bullying behavior, and I don't think it's acceptable on any forum.

Truth is, the original poster asked a question about Paua abalone, and whether there was currently concern over the sustainability of the animal. Truth is, there actually was one direct answer to the question, provided by Tony Francis:



That was it, the answer the original poster was looking for. I was as bad as anyone in going off on tangents, and I'm busting myself for it, but you'll see me showing respect and restraint in any words I post - even when my opinion is in opposition to others. Maybe we can all take a few deep breaths before we hit the Submit button, strive to completely eliminate bullying/mocking remarks, not get caught up in the pedantic trivialities, and either ignore the post and move on or try to offer something useful to the original poster (which could be in respectful opposition) or even offer a witty (but not cutting) remark.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I'm so confused....I thought Hide glue was just hard to see. I thought that was why I could never find anything I glued up in my shop.

What happened to " Mr. ED"????

Kent

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Wood Creations by Kent A. Bailey
EXCELLENCE IN SCULPTURE, CARVING, LUTHIER, ARCHITECTURAL MILLWORK AND DESIGN

http://www.kabart.com

IMHO there are two or three..or more seperate issues here and its perhaps wise to consider them independantly... the first one of 'pain' is tricky as its dependent on the physiology of the organism - and you do need to differentiate between a response that is observed say over time in plants and a conscious physical effect as we perceive it - although there are exceptions, as a general rule, the nervous system needs to be reasonable well advanced to be able to perceive pain and./or emotive responses such as fear which is perhaps even more of an ethical issue.. I'll leave that point there as its a huge can of worms.

Utilizing by products of either food farming or natural wild collection is another point. Farming issues depend on the methods IMHO, and whatever the situation who could argue its better to use all the annimal or plant rather than discard much of it.

Wild collection be it animal or plant brings with it a multitude of ecological issues for the species itself, the impact its harvesting (and often reduction in population) has on biological habitat and niche reduction and thus the direct impact on other species that depend on it (bio-diversity)....

Ethically, there is no doubt that instrument makers have a relatively minor impact with the low volume of resources we use compared to other industries, and I would say that probably 99.9999% of those on here would consider themselves privalaged to use materials and look where possible for sustainable or reclaimed sources. There are now issues with teh mass producers in the far east who now have access to high levels of cheaper grades - trees that are often farmed young etc, but I dont know enough bout that to comment.

Each of us has their own opinion and makes their own judgement, but it remains a fact that no matter how long it might take, we should maybe look to do our bit in the conservation stakes even if only to preserve the craft for future generations...

.... maybe OLF could look into sponsoring the replanting of Dalbergia Nigra in Brazil - I know there are conservation groups that do this, and then maybe one day, in the distant future, there might well be a supply of this prized wood again in the future....?