Official Luthiers Forum!

I started out buying some instruments off ebay for repair to learn . If they got trashed , I wasnt out much. My first two paying jobs , I went in with the knowledge up front , that I was a newbie and I would do the work. However I made NO promises , and NO guarantees. The owner was ok with that and I proceeded . Both were done and the owner is quite happy.

I have in my own mind set a limit to the " Value" of the guitar in question. Someone comes to me with a Old Gibson of high value I will send them to a Pro!

So to directly answer your question , I wouldnt try anything of that magnatude until I had 5-6 yrs of experiance myself. It will vary based on the abilities of each person . However that is just how I would view myself in that light.

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I`m in the same camp with James.
Only took repair work on from people who always say "I have an old guitar in the closet..." and as long as I didn`t hear one of the big boys` names, did repairs on the clunkers.
No guarantees, value stated up front, my hobbyist level, and my own production schedule.
I`ve brought back a few from certain death with no complaints.
The main thing I always tell myself is "Know your limitations".
Making money? Nope.
Enjoying myself? You betcha.
Future in it? I`m in deep enough now...
I`ve had a Kay 6-string waiting for me to reset the neck, and I`m still scared to death that it will melt terribly when I start disassembly, so that can wait until I`m comfortable about it. (I don`t think the owner is gonna pay anyway). That`s another story.
I am talking with new people here and there and have some business if I want it (just not yet).
Coe Franklin

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Todd...great question indeed. After I had been building and experimenting on sick guitars for about 5 years, I felt comfortable in doing certain repair jobs. It's now 8 years and I will only accept a limited scope of activities.

For a few years now, I have been doing setups, re-fret jobs, bridge re-glues and replacements, binding re-attachments (NO CA!!!) and minor crack repairs. My most extensive repair has been to replace a damaged back but only after doing so on two throw-away guitars. I doubt that I will ever do neck resets because I don't want to do extensive repairs...I'd rather build. But on more than one occasion, friends needed their guitar attended to and I was talked into doing the above work. When the work is good they pass along the word and others make their own emergency requests. I won't do rush jobs for fear of becoming uninspired. Being inspired is much more fun.

The issue you describe is sad and can only serve to diminish other builder/repair craftsmen reputations. Hopefully the guy who botched the job will get out of the business or take an extensive repair course. My suspicion is that he will do neither and continue to prey on unsuspecting guitar owners. If so, he should be exposed and shunned.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

It sounds to me like the person who buggered up that guitar suffered from a lack of integrity more than anything else. This is a totally separate issue when talking about starting out as someone who wants to do repairs or anything else in life for that matter.

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Probably every repairman has seen something similar to the Gibson you describe- "repairs" done by a well-meaning but inexperienced individual. I bet most repairman can remember something they did early on which was over their head, and didn't go well, too ( I know I sure can). Ideally one would learn from a skilled and experienced repairman, starting with simple tasks under supervision and progressing to the more complex as one's skill developed. But as there are not skilled repairmen on every corner, and often the ones that are there can't afford (or just don't want) a student, the situation is more complex. For me, building has been a great teacher, as fixing my mistakes is essentially a repair process that translates well. Other people are just clever, enterprenurial,and have a good sense of what they can and can't fix right off and go on to do well. Several I know were machinists.
Richard Brune, who is a world-class luthier and restorer, was entirely self taught. His advice, though, is not to teach yourself- I bet has has seen his share of botched repairs- even Segovia's instruments were fixed sloppily- but he does't offer much else in the way of advice .
One thing for sure- if you accept a repair and botch it- no one is going to bail you out, or if they do, the price will be huge.......

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In Markham,Virginia

My take is you should learn to repair before you ever sell an instrument. You need to be able to take care of any issue that may arise with an instrument you build. If you can't then you are setting your self up for a disaster.

Now repair work on instruments you did not build is a different issue. But the same thing holds true. You must know how to do a proper repair before you ever take a repair job. If all you know is re-fretting then don't take a finish repair job. Just common sense

The problem is that a fret job can easily escalate to a finish repair job...

Many times when doing a fret job on an older instrument some of the finish or binding gets damaged on the side of the neck that needs to be repaired or something accidental happens necessitating finish repair-You relly need to be an all around guy...

True but my point was if you are not a repairman then don't do repair work. If you are not well experienced in most repairs then selling your builds is nearly equally as risky

I've been repairing my own instruments; woodwind, brass, and string for over 40 yrs. I am not a pro and I've had some absolutely stunning failures. I have done repairs for friends, usually for no charge. The most important thing I've learned is to know your limitations and help the friend/customer find a qualified person for those repairs that I am not confident I can do well.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem doing more advanced repairs on my own stuff. I'm currently refurbishing my late '60s 016NY and this one looks like it needs a neck reset. I expect this may take me a year or two to complete.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'd say not to take in repairs for payment until you've done the major jobs successfully a number of times on your own instruments. That would be neck resets, refrets, regluing plates to ribs, splinted cracks, and the like. Building is not a preparation for repairs. With building, your "signature" is all over the work. In repairs, there should be no signature; a good repairer must not leave his or her mark.

I know of a builder whose guitars were in such demand that he never got to take the time to learn to do good fretwork or repairs. When his guitars came back because of substandard fretwork, he had to farm out the repairs. But he's selling like crazy. Go figure.

I think the most important thing when doing repairs is to know when a job is out of your league. This guy, though well-intentioned, apparently didn't.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I still have issues building my own guitars. Repairman??? NO!..I repaired a totally trashed guitar of my own and it turned out great. New top, new bindings all around and cracked back, new fingerboard, new bridge... Nothing to loose and it was mine. The only other guitar I've repaired was a cracked top/side/back and total bridge replacement. Again.... This guitar was a lost cause and worth nothing when I got it. It wasn't my guitar but I did the repair for free just to gain some experience. No guarantees it would be fixable. That was the deal I made with the owner. It turned pretty good...but unless someone is willing to part with a guitar, I won't do any repairs. I won't touch a guitar with real value for any repair. I'm not set up to do repair work and don't have ...or wish to do the extensive training necessary for quality repair work. There are already too many people who don't know what they are doing in the repair world. I won't be one of them.
Kent

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I don't do much repair work anymore other than my own instruments. I would much rather build with the limited time I have.
One of my good friends "talked" me into doing some work on his old Epiphone archtop which required refinishing part of the neck.

I told him I would have to take off the tuning machines in order to finish the back of the head so the finish would have an edge to stop out.
He wanted me to "blend" the finish at the neck/head juncture so I wouldn't have to take te machines off. (he was worried that since the machines were old and delicate at this point they might get damaged)
I told him,no-I have to do it this way because I knew it wouldn't come out right the other way and he agreed.

The reason I relate this story is that a repairman needs to know what to do and what NOT to do and not l let the customer dictate the scenario, even if it means losing the job.


So as to the question of when?

When you have the confidence that you can do the "right" job.

Like Stephen, I think this boils down to personal integrity. As many above have noted, there is an ethical way to handle this type of situation and when approached in an open and honest manner everyone wins. Like Michael, I'm a strong believer that if you can't repair your guitars you shouldn't be selling them--and I can't, so I won't.

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George :-)

Good builders don't always make good repair guy and good repairmen don't always make good builders. To be honest , I have seen many poor repair jobs that " builders" did. This is often a case where the owner is looking for some cheap work and thinking he is doing a favor as is the guy doing the work.
Learning repair is more difficult than building. If you don't have the training and skills , start like many of us do , but cheap yard salers and learn from them. I turned down a lot of work when starting. CA while having a place is repair is not the glue you ever want to use near a top for any reason.
So if you can't fix it , do take it in . If you think you can . get a guitar and try the repair and if you fail you at least know you didn't mess up a good guitar.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
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You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Hmm...
Well as long as you are upfront about your skills before you begin the job, you should be allright. Don't take a job you aren't sure you can do. 'Cause even if you're sure you can do it, you'll find a way to F it up given enough chances. It depends on what the customer wants as well. They may prefer a rough and tumble economy job instead of a laborious expensive boutique repair. It also depends on the value of the instrument.
As for billing work that you haven't done, well we all know what to say about that.
About not building to sell until you are a competent repairperson, I just don' t see that as being realistic. How do you get through the first 30 years till your first batch needs neck resets to practice on?

It's a difficult question...
There is a huge difference between taking on "Paying work" and doing jobs for friends who understand that sometimes it doesn't go according to plan, or where a scratch or 2 doesn't matter much... like replacing the 1st 4 frets, and doing a Bone nut and saddle on your brother's 1986 Beater Yamaha (Plywood top and back)... Or resetting the neck on an Esteban for a friend's kid... It is way too expensive to send to the Luthier... so it gets stuffed in the closet or thrown in the trash otherwise...

But.. The advice about not learning on one's own if at all possible is good advice... There are too many "Impossible" repairs that go reasonably well if you know how to do it... and the Pro's have learned how to do it right (Broken Gibson headstocks are 1 that come to mind..)

I always enjoy getting to see the pro builders/repair guys pix of some of their repair jobs that show up on some of the other forums...

One was an old J-45 that looked like someone had nailed a Forklift pallet to the inside of the soundboard... Literally, it had 5 or 6 pieces of 1" square wood glued to the soundboard...

Another was an old Gibson Archtop... The Luthier's comment was along the lines of looking like a bear had sat on it... Then took a dump inside it...

Another luthier lovingly talks about cleaning up the aftermath of a "Pour and Shake" glue job brace repair..

Those cases were Botched Amateur repairs that made the subsequent Pro repairs much more difficult and costly.... but by that time, the instruments were worth the $$$$....

Compare it to a 1940 Regal -- which is NOW... at the Peak of it's value worth $300.00... Pay $800.00 for a Neck reset? Probably not...

Sadly, many folks don't even know they are only ruining stuff and making further repairs harder... My grandfather was the king of "Farm Repairs" -- I am always finding bailing wire, pallet banding, nails, and sheet steel inside otherwise interesting Family furniture... Glue joint loose on the dining room table? Just throw a couple nails into that Nice Dry Oak endgrain... CRRRAAAKKKK... Well... Glob some glue in there to shore it up...... Chair kinda wobbly... Just nail some Pallet banding to it... and now, those hinky repairs are 60-years old...

*Sigh*... Now that the furniture is mine, I am trying to undo some of that "work"... but it's not always possible... That chunk of 1" angle iron that Grandpa screwed to Grandma's antique Walnut burl Vanity 60 years ago is there to stay since the end of the leg is long gone...

But.. For Todd... At least the "Luthier" fellow hadn't taken the neck joint apart and then glued it back together (Out of whack) with 1/2 gallon of Epoxy!

Thanks

John

What did the devout repair person charge the poor fellow?

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Being quite handy and just having take up the guitar I was given quite a few broken guitars I could have it I could fix them up, first I turned up metal bridge pins for unusual sized holes then with the help of a repairman I'd made some tools I planed a bridge down, I've done nearly half a dozen headstock repairs, a couple with loose braces and a cracked top and I can't remember but probably another half dozen loose bridges, now my warnings go out to the owner that I'm a complete novice I'll not work on a precious instrument or anything worth over £250 except a setup, my prices normally free match my experience level and luckily I've not had anything come back, but I've never done any cosmetic repairs and I have an excellent luthier whom I prefer to recommend people to.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Up here, close to the arctic circle, next to the North Sea, there weren't too many competent guitar repair persons to turn to when I was a young teenager, learning to play the guitar in the early '80's; still aren't. So me, being a tinkerer by nature, naturally started tinkering with my guitars to "fix" things, then moved on to my friends' guitars, their friends' guitars, and so on... So to the question "...were you really competent to offer those services?", the answer would be "no way", but what can you do? This far away from "civilization" that's how we operate. I remember reading Dan Erlewine's repair column in "Guitar Player" (I think?), that was about the only info I had.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I've been fixing instruments since '99. I started as a band instrument repairman at a local music store where I was trained. My training consisted of the owner beating the hell out of some horn and handing it to me saying "roll this kind of dent like this, peen this like so....now here you finish it." It was actually a great way of learning because I had to just start doing it and learn by doing. The local violin builder I get a lot of my help from puts it like this "You can watch me French polish until you're blue in the face but I can't tell you how the pad is supposed to feel. You'll really only learn that by doing it a thousand times." I am very up front about what I can and can't do but I also take jobs that scare me because I won't learn how to do them unless I start doing them.

this topic seems to be more about integrity and knowing ones skills/abilities.personaly, I will be slow to take on repairs, right now i would feel comfortable doing set-ups, new nuts and saddles, perhaps a fret job if the instrument is not too vintage or valuable.
will I be selling my own guitars? absolutly! I know exactly how my guitars are put together, what glues are used where . and what I think is the largest repair issue is the finish. I am french polishing ,I know absolutly I can repair the finish of my guitars (again LOL ) if need be .I would feel absolutly comfortable taking my guitars apart and putting them back together. Jody