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First, the sides were bent for me but they were not tapered. I tapered the back the way Robbie Obrien’s video shows but did not taper the sides for the top. I now have the neck and tail block glued and the kerf lining. Now with all that glued up and the sides where the top meets is flat I have the choice of a flat top guitar or using the sanding dish to sand the rim and kerf down until they fit in the 28’ rad. Dish. I was about to do the latter of the two when I notice that that would change the neck block where the top rest on. Does the actual neck block have a 28 foot rad or is it totally flat and the rest of the top 28 foot rad?

What are your suggestions?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

Doc the neck block gets radiused too just like the sides and it all happens together when sanded in or on a radius dish. If I understand you correctly you have already glued the kerfed linings to the rim but didn't radius the top of the rim first? Is this correct? Also what kind of kerfed linings are you using regular, reversed, or something else such as solid linings?

The reason I am asking is that you may be able to just radius the top of the rim kerfed linings and all in a dish now although you will get a real workout because in the neck block area the rim, linings, and neck block will be approx. 1/8" proud of where they will be when radiused. I am asking about the linings because reversed kerfed linings can lose 1/8" of top and still be substantial enough to do the job... possibly/hopefully... where regular linings may lose gluing area if 1/8" or more is lopped/sanded off the top of them.

If you remove the linings and then radius the top in a dish without having the additional work of sanding through the linings... install the linings, touch it up in the dish that will work too. Not sure what kind of glue that you used for the linings?

I get the impression that the sides were not shaped for the taper of the back? Or, they are the same height at the tail as at the neck? If that's the case, you are probably going to have to get some new lining, then taper the sides, glue in new linings, and then do the radius thing.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Unfortunately I have the "standard" kerf. I used regular titebond. What is too narrow concerning width of the top of the lining?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

I'm looking at some regular triangular kerfed linings and these have a straight part above the angled part and the straight part is 3/16" high and this is the area that would be removed in the dish. My problem is that there would not be a lot of lining left and this, the upper bout, is an area where stiffness is important.

You would still have enough of the flat part of the linings to attach the top to but not much meat under the top in some places. Don't know if it would work or not and when I feel this way I would remove the linings or at least remove them from the top half of the guitar, radius, and reglue. You may need to use new linings if you go this route and they get messed up during removal.

Then again others may just be fine with reducing the height of the linings in the dish - perhaps see what other folks have to say here?

What body style is it and if you say it's an OOO I am going to use this emoticon...

Actually it is a dreadnaught. The fist two were 000 12 fret and 14 fret. I wanted to make something I didn't have so if it isn't good enough to try to sell I would get to keep it! That's what I tell my wife anyway

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

Do I understand right? You've got sides bent and glued to the blocks, but no back or top yet?

If you've got a lot of material to remove, I'd wait on sanding in the radius dish and reach for the block plane. It doesn't take long to get it close enough to sand easily. Test fit it in the dish a lot and try to keep that beveled edge in mind while planing, especially around the blocks. It's frustrating to plane them down flush to where you need them, and realize you've got to bring the rims down another 1/8" to get the neck block to match the radius.

Mike

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Mike Lindstrom

Well, I guess part of the question revolves around whether you WANT the rims radiused or not. (Personally, I have taken to gluing a radiused top to a flat rim tapered in the upper bout lately. Kinda similar to Hesh's method but the rest of the rim is flat.)

But it seems like the main jist of your question revolves around the neck block. Important thing is that it gets full contact with the top - no matter the method you use. You can use the flat rim method tapered flat in the upper bout, Hesh's method of a radiused rim set sanded flat in the upper bout, a fully radiused rim set with the top sanded flat under the fingerboard extension.....each of these, done correctly, will give you full contact on the neck block.

So, if you want a radiused rim, sand away. If, when you do, you find that your linings are not substantial enough (I think they'll be fine...), then whittle the linings off and redo 'em. Won't take long.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I went ahead and sanded it and this is what it left me with. I think its ok. what do you guys think?

(sorry the pics are not good )

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

Can't tell much by the pics. It "looks" like your neck block is standing proud of the sides?

Bottom line...if the method you're using (I assume a radius dish) is making contact everywhere - including the linings and the entire top section of the neck block - you're fine. If not, keep sanding. Use pencil or chalk or some other medium to check your progress.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Sorry, this pic is bad. Everything is in contact with the sanding dish. I wanted to show in the pics what was left of the kerf lining after all that sanding. I think it is enough. Do you?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

Wes,

If not too far off topic, would you mind giving more detail about using a radiused top on a flat rim? I assume you "spring" the top down on a rim sanded flat (with a seperate flat section at a 1 1/2 deg angle where the fretboard extensions sits). I read about this technique on the UnO. Martin forum (or somewhere) and had considered trying it. The post discussed how it affected the tone and I liked the idea at the time. Do you have an idea how much radius is left in the top after your done?

How would you say this technique affects the tone on your guitars?

Appreciate your thoughts.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Structurally, you're fine. You have the full with of the lining left to glue the top to. The loss off the height won't hurt anything. Visually, it's up to you. It's on the top, so you can't see it through the soundhole (maybe through a soundport). If it bothers you, chisel it off and redo it. Won't take long.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Darryl, I don't have a large base to go off of for comparison. My first was radiused all the way, and the last few have all used this technique after reading about it some years ago on the MIMF. I started trying this method after reading a general consensus that it generally gave a more "traditional" tone (however you want to read that.... ) over fully radiused rim. I do know that Huss and Dalton uses this method on their "traditional" series instruments, while they use a radiused rim set on their more contemporary line. That was the first place I heard of it. A good A/B would be to play a H&D DM vs. a TDM and see for yourself. I haven't played a regular DM for comparison, but I do know that the one TDM I played was one hoss of a guitar! Those who have played both tend to describe the DM as more "modern" in tone. Again......

I can tell you that I am continually getting closer to "that" tone in my head - you know, the one we're all looking for. (Well, OK, so you're not looking for the tone in MY head, but you know what I mean ) But to use my first (and only) radiused build for comparison wouldn't be fair. The difference between my #1 dread and #2 OM was striking to say the least (the OM just killed the dread!), but I certainly can't say that it was because of any one thing. Since that point, I've been sticking to this basic methodology for my subsequent builds and making smaller tweaks until I build a broader knowledge base. At some point in the future - when I've reached some amount of consistency and repeatability and know what to expect from this bracing - I may branch into other ideas and learn from those as well. Just part of the never ending tone quest, my friend!

As far as the construction, you've pretty well got it. I brace my tops (so far) on 25' and sand my rims flat. When I'm done, I shim the sanding board at the tail somewhat like Hesh shows and take the upper bout down to around the waist area. My upper bout bracing is all flat, BTW. I use a flat UTB and flat A-frame bracing inlet into the neck block. The lower bout is radiused and everything down there stops short of the linings. So you could say the top is "sprung", I suppose, but it's a very small amount.

I guess it's another one of those things that you don't know WHY it works, it just does. At least to the ever-subjective satisfaction of many. You would expect it to somewhat stiffen the perimeter of the soundboard, if anything, when many are trying to loosen that area. Of course, it could be said that by stopping all my braces short of the linings the perimeter is already looser.

Never measured the final dome of the top after bracing, but I can't see where it would be changed much. The soundboard bracing should maintain the shape pretty well and only the perimeter is "stressed", so to speak.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Thank you Wes! Any chance you remember the post on MIMF discussing this? I read a post on this eith on MIMF or UMF......but I can no longer find it.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I think I found it Wes: http://www.mimf.com/library/domed_tops.htm

An interesting quote from the link by David D. Berkowitz:



Probably as good an answer as I will find!

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......