Official Luthiers Forum!

I thought I would start a new thread so that folks participating in the last one (Padma's) are not misunderstood further as to their reasons for responding.

Personally I don't ascribe to the "scrape-and-sand-till-it-sounds-better" (or worse) approach. Too many decisions about sound have to be made and "built in" long before there is a finished guitar to evaluate for that approach to bear significant fruit .
John Hall's point about making incremental changes is the approach that I always recommend in that once you get somewhere with your building you can see where you came from without the added distraction of many twists, turns and false starts.
John Ray's advice is also well taken though one needs to be well beyond the basics in order to benefit from the exposure to a great builder. Being self-taught I had forty years to learn those things by the time I attended Jose Romanillos' course and knew what questions to ask and which utterances were nuggets while unfortunately many in the course struggled with basic woodworking and assembly procedures which could have been taught by practically any competant builder and totally missed the salient points.
The quality of answers one gets to questions is always dependant on the quality of the questions asked, and toward that end, perhaps we can pick up the discussion there.

Best

I guess I am a pro in that I do make my living in this business. I was afforded some terrific opportunities as I was coming up. 2003 was a turning point for me as that was when I started looking at this from a business possibility and not a hobby.
ASIA has helped me a great deal but it has been meeting people that helped me and shared what they knew. I have learned that education costs , you either pay your teacher or pay for your mistakes.
Mentors like Dave Nichols , Steve Kovacik , CF Martin and Mr LaPlante helped me get to where I am . My first 2 years were an exercise of wood gluing and discovery. Once I learned that building techniques and material can influence the guitars I had to find for me what I wanted to get out of the guitar.
When you look at an apprenticeship in any trade , it takes 4 years , and that is with intensive training , you can see that this is a commitment to learn how to build guitars. Trying to teach yourself makes your journey that much harder.
Good luck on your journey and thank you Mr LaPlante for all the help in the past that helped me become what I am today. I hope that I can continue to learn and share what I have learned.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

David-
I'm not trying to be disrespectful to the many very skilled builders I've 'met' here online and also in person, but....
My experience has been that asking questions beyond the level of 'construction techniques' generally produces little in the way of straightforward answers. (The notable exception to this practice is Alan Carruth, who really does 'share' a lot of advanced info.)
The responses tend to fall into two categories:
a) Do a lot of experiments yourself and keep good records and by the 100th (200th?) guitar you will figure it out for yourself.
b) 'Give me money!'
I tried option b) a few years ago (took a course) and $5k later still got nothing beyond construction techniques and 'tricks'. When I asked questions like : "How do you tell when you have shaved the braces enough?", I got answers like - "Leave them at 10 mm- that's usually good." or:"You can't really tell that- you just have to see how it works out." The topper was: "That can't really be taught."

So, I don't think it is really fair to blame the questioner in all cases.

Cheers
John

I agree with both of you. I went to Galloup and learned a lot,however, I needed to get more out of building as school was very one way and little overbuilt (as I later learned). I then spent time at Pantheon and went a whole new step up working with great builders and learning from Dana how to voice and listen. I also spent time with John Mayes and got lot of things worked out.

My big education came from working with Bill Moll. He took me to a whole new level, but in more ways than just the construction. He made me think and learn. His concept while apprenticing with him was if there is a problem figure out how to make it work. He of course showed me so much in how to make good miter joins, brace and voice and list just goes on and on. His focus was just to make me a better builder and work how to do that. We would talk about how there are lots of ways to do things, but as he noted there are just as many ways no to that may sound good. How to plan a build from concept to getting it done. He showed my how he does things, and have to say, what he does is very good. I listen a lot to Mario, Rick Turner and others, again there ways are pretty good ways. I have my own thing to do and when find a problem arising have learned to think about it and then what to do.

No one is born with skills,they are generally acquired from those around.As we grow up we can take from what we have already been taught and learn by our selves but for most of us, most of what we have learned has been from others. It's too seldom we see folks who publicly thank thier mentors. But for those who do I think it speaks to their character. John ,you are a bit higher up on my totem pole tonight and I think you must make Mr. LaPlante proud as you pass on to others . Well done...John Hall.......!!!
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Indeed, I'm glad our conversations have been helpful to you John, thanks for your kind words
I think one of the reasons some builders have vague responses to these questions is that they have an intuitive approach to their work and may not be able to easily explain why they do certain things.
Those with scientific ways of looking often can express the things they seek in easier to express values and measurements.
Recently I attended a meeting of western MA luthiers where John Ostoff did a presentation on top wood where he had
weighed and measured stiffness etc. to evaluate a half dozen or so tops. Intuitively I chose the exact same top as he did for my favorite (a European Spruce example).
I basically picked it up, flexed it, got a sense of the density and stiffness and came to the exact same conclusion that he had. We chatted later and it was obvious that we both valued the same qualities in the wood and simply used a different language of perception to choose the same thing.
When I work on an instrument all of my previous notions come into play, some basic measurements in terms of top and back thickness and bracing are used but also I step into the guitar itself intuitively based on these observations and adjust things accordingly based on my concept of what I want it to be.
Perhaps the bad news is that indeed this cannot be taught, but the good news is that everyone shares these senses and can create their own language for themselves.

As an amateur beginner, its sometimes difficult to join in these conversations and provide any insights apart from those that are at best philosophical or naive, but the over-riding principles of the build process do seem relatively simple - the compromise between structural integrity (long term) and that balance between stiffness and lightness that gets the best out of the wood that is being used and provides the tonal characteristics of the instrument.

As beginners, when questions are asked, the great thing is there are so many experienced pros and amateurs on here that are willing to share their experience and provide useful insights, but the downside is that they can often be at odds with each other, so in some cases there can be confusion for those like myself that have really only begun the journey - But there can also be an advantage to comming at it from a slightly 'virginal' perspective - because there are no preconceptions about what path to follow. There is a freedom to it which is part of the addiction - the learning is made more fun by the very process of trial and error and the experience you gain from those first steps is invaluable.

Additionally, you soon realise that its one thing knowing the principles, and books are fantastic for this as is the advice you can get on here, but you still need to get the practical experience of simply listening to the effects that the advised techniques have on the instrument - and for that there is no substitute for simply building lots of guitars... but that is the aim anyway overwise what else will we do with the obsessive collecting of fine wood!

For 99% of builders - it will take many years and many guitars to reach the pinnacle of what their natural talent will allow - for most such as myself who came in late I doubt I ever will as there is simply not enough time left to build enough and gain that experience (as a part -time hobbyist) - so the aim is to slowly improve with each build - made more complex by deciding to use differnt combinations of wood and size for every build!

Internet forums are great for sharing tips and techniques, discussing (arguing?) ideas, receiving (and hopefully giving) inspiration etc. But for those who choose to go the intuitive route -as most of us must to a certain extent- the hands on approach can not be duplicated with bytes and pixels. One must learn directly through others whenever possible, and through trial and error.

I totally agree with David that the quality of the question determines the quality of the answer, how could it be otherwise?

And John Abercrombie, I am not sure I agree with you. I do not see much, if at all, irony, cynicism or belittlement around here, but rather a willingness to answer even the most arcane questions as best as one can.
Each time I see the "how thick should my top be?" conundrum, I want to ask: "How old is a tree?".

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

That, for me, is the difference between those who excel at an art and those who have truly mastered it. The difference between 'doing' and 'understanding', if you will. The thing I love most about teaching is that the differences between what you can do and what you understand show up quickly when you can't show someone else how to do it. Even as a mathematician, the first time I really understood calculus was when I had to teach it to two engineers

I don't think there's anything we do in craft that can't be conveyed with language somehow, it's just that outside of a very few professions being able to articulate what one has learned has very little perceived value versus what one can do. Einstein and Feynman weren't geniuses because they could solve hard problems; savants can do that. Their real genius was that they could tell other people how to solve hard problems.

Laurent: Are you saying we can tell how thick a top should be with a core sample?

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

[quote="Laurent Brondel"]
And John Abercrombie, I am not sure I agree with you. I do not see much, if at all, irony, cynicism or belittlement around here, but rather a willingness to answer even the most arcane questions as best as one can.
[quote]

Laurent-
I had to re-read my post to double check.. those aren't my words!

In an online situation, it's certainly difficult to 'show' concepts like the 'feel' of a top, etc. - especially for those who are not comfortable expressing ideas in words or scientific terminology. I have no problem with that. If experienced builders replied to questions with answers like: "Well, I can't put it in words, but if you drop around to my shop I can show you tops that I would reject and others I consider excellent, and I could explain how I judge.", then that would be entirely reasonable. I have read (tens of) thousands of posts online and have never seen such an answer.
I also have not seen specific postings of deflection testing data and critera from experienced builders, though there have been a number of threads on this topic as well.
I have seen many, many, many answers of the 'only experience will tell you', 'you have to pay for your education' , 'you have to just feel it- come back in 10 years' variety. And you don't have to look very far to find answers like 'it's proprietary' and 'buy my book' as well.... which is all well and good. I'd just as soon have a builder tell me 'straight-up' that he has secrets that he's not going to share since his 'unique sound' and livelihood depend on it, rather than give vague and uncommittal answers.

I'm with Bob Garrish (paraphrasing here) in saying "If you can't teach something, you probably don't understand it."

And, if you 'hang out a shingle' that says 'Teacher' or 'School' or 'Course' , then 'It can't be taught' is simply unacceptable as an answer to most questions regarding measurable quantities. When I asked the 'how much to shave braces' question when taking the building course, I had a (unreasonable???) expectation that the instructor would pick up my braced top, 'do something'- feel, tap, commune, whatever- and give an opinion. Ideally, he would then have pulled out a sample top where the braces were too thin, and said' "Don't get it like this- this is too thin" and another , overbraced top and said:'This is way overbraced'. 'Take these tops and check them out for 10 min or so and I will be back to talk to you about what differences you figure out'.
What's so difficult about that?

Obviously, questions like 'How do you come up with an original idea' or 'How did you get the idea for that melody/painting/whatever' are in a slightly different category - though there are lots of books on those very topics.

Cheers
John

There is a line we can't cross . When giving advice I have to look at the experience and take at best an educated guess to the person's skill level and understanding . In most cases the question may get answered but sometimes , we may talk a bit over the heads of the questioner. I hope I don't do that often , that is why we started the videos , as a picture is worth a 1000 words and a movie is worth 1001. We also do have some secrets or proprietary information that we can't give out .
I hope you all learn as much from me as I do from you. Take your time and keep the strings on the outside

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I agree with John to some extent in that I do think its possible to be taught some of those very difficult things to a certain degree. I have been lucky enough to have a very experienced pro mentor me throug the process for the last couple of years - a few hours each week. Just by watching and hearing tap tones, having it explained how 'the wittling' works and its effects etc I would definitely say I have 'learned' this a lot quicker than if just left to yourself to try and figure it out - which i probably stating the obvious - but the real trick is then being able to continue to do this by yourself and remember everything!

I think though john with some of the most subjective elements of the build process, and tone is a subjective thing, where there are standard principles but where each pro has their own details that translate into their unique sound, it does become more difficult to 'teach' what in many cases may be a very personal thing, maybe not for commercial reasons, but simply because how do you decribe 'what you are listening for'?

Like any profession, which requires skill and experience to achieve professional standard results ...consistently... working with materials that offer so much variation in every piece of wood that all effect tone - I can totally understand why many pros feel you have to 'pay your dues' - afteral they will rightly say they did - and especially so for those who have achieved what most agree to be pretty close to a mastery that we perhaps know we will probably never obtain ourselves- either through limited talents or limited time. That does not mean we cannot achieve a high standard that we can be proud of, and that in itself is what drives me - as well as pure enjoyment of the process - If someone is 'short' in response to a question and explains its because in their opinnion its simply too long an answer - I think its fair enough, but I am in agreement with you that if someone tmakes the time to respond, an explanation of their opinion might be worth hearing.

I think the biggest challenge for me as a beginner is patience. We all hope we have the talent that will allow us to obtain high standard and build superb instruments that look, play and importantly sound great in the shortest possible time - afterall it takes £££ and time to build a guitar and where is the fun in building 20 sets of firewood? And i am probably one of the most impatient folk i know.

Hummmmm......What does this mean? All you professionals have been keeping secrets? Things you don't want to share with us? .......Hummmmm !!!

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

One of the greatest challenges facing a teacher of lutherie is our lack of a common vocabulary. We just don't have the words for many of the qualities and characteristics we deal with. I think that's often at the root of the "you can't teach this, you have to learn it for yourself" response -- the teacher doesn't have the words and so figures that no one does. Approaching lutherie in more scientific terms gives us a clearly-defined language -- when someone talks about density, deflection, Young's modulus, etc., the terms are unambiguous and can be understood by everyone. But we need more than just the terms. We need an understanding of how they all work to produce a musical guitar-like sound. Without a rigorous and fairly complete model of how the guitar actually works, we have to intuit how the whole system functions and that's where we run into difficulties.

I think the challenge for beginners is finding a teacher or teachers who express themselves in a way that makes sense to them. That will be different for different individuals, and different for any one individual at different times in his or her education. A quantitative approach may make it easier for one student to learn about assessing wood samples. Another student may find that listening and flexing is more meaningful -- and both may find that the alternative approach enriches their understanding when they reach some critical point in their education.

The challenge for teachers is to be sensitive to what works for each student and to adapt their teaching to the individual. An instructor may have tremendous understanding of instruments but if that understanding cannot be transmitted in an effective and efficient way, the educational opportunity is lost. This is yet another skill for the luthier to acquire ... and it's much harder than using a chisel or plane, at least in my experience.

And for all of us, the challenge is to think and express ourselves clearly and simply. The vocabulary of sound is pathetically lacking. We use metaphors from other senses ( a "sweet" or "warm" tone etc.) since we don't have the precise, unique words to describe sound. Misusing words -- "strength" instead of "stiffness" is common -- only makes the situation worse and contributes to the difficulty of learning. Perhaps David's advice about knowing what questions to ask could also include taking the time to think about HOW to ask the question. So often, when you pause to phrase the question well, the answer becomes clear.

I agree Rick.
Maybe we can start one with this post.
Anyone willing to start?

Mike

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Mike Collins

How true.
A thought to ponder in this hyperactive and nebulous age.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/