Official Luthiers Forum!

hello i was just wondering if any of you guys ever patented any of your tools /jigs
Is their different levels of patenting ?
Is it worth it or is it just a lot of hassle and money gone to waste

i didnt even think about it.. tell a friend suggested it
thanks
tomas

I have four patents, well my company does in my name. It is funny how the idea was original set up to protect individuals but it seems to protect companies more than individuals.

I can't think of a good reason to patent a tool unless you are planning on mass producing them for sale, or selling the rights to the patent to a company for mass production. It will cost too much and take a lot of time.
Also, a patent isn't worth anything if you are not prepared to defend it in court.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

"Also, a patent isn't worth anything if you are not prepared to defend it in court."

Steve, this is an unfortunate belief held by many folks that don't really understand what a patent is or how it works.

I can think of lots of reasons to patent something regardless of whether I want or can afford to "defend it in court."

1) No one else can patent it and prohibit you from the benefit of the device or method
2) It's property and can be licensed or sold
3) Theoretically, you can charge more for products made with the invention
4) You can stop knockoffs from being imported without going to court (sometimes)
5) You can threaten to sue and negotiate a settlement, most infringement cases do not go to court
6) It is useful in marketing to enhance perceived value of your product
7) The existence of a patent is a serious deterrent and often works to keep competitors out of the market without court action.

I could go on. But to answer Tomas' question directly, the process is very expensive and it should be factored into a business plan that takes into account the cost and still make sense. You should know what the patent(s) are going to do for you before you start into the process. It can be an expensive ego boost if not or an expensive mistake if you haven't done your homework.

If you have something valuable, you should speak with a professional to determine if it is worthwhile and makes sense from a cost/benefit basis. At least go to the library and read a book about patents and the patent process. If you are not scared off and still want to make an advised decision, call a patent lawyer. That's my advice.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

You can keep some control over your inventions by using a "creative commons" license. I don't know a great deal about it but you can allow people to use your intellectual property without giving up your right to use it, and can place some restrictions on how it is used.

Joe

I think Steve would be correct if he would have left of the "in court" part. If you don't defend your patent, it effectively doesn't exist.

Patenting is a huge money and time suck. Unless you think your idea is big enough that it will generate some decent coin, it's simply not worth it. As far as someone patenting something out from under you, so long as you have some sort of proof that you had the idea first, you win.

I'm not saying patents are worthless in all circumstances, they're just worthless when it comes to low dollar low volume type of stuff.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Andy, I don't want to get into a long discussion about this, but since I have a patent practice (about 30 years and counting) working for clients at a large Intellectual Property law firm I am hoping to dispell some of the broad brush myths and misunderstandings that come up in the layman's world with respect to this topic.

I largely agree with you that for us hobbyists, obtaining a patent would not be worth the cost. Every once in a while it is. One of my clients, a painting contractor, invented an incredibly simple device to assist in painting, entered into talks with a Fortune 100 company, and has retired on the earnings from his exclusive license agreement. By the way, the contractor will never have to pay to "defend his patent," according to the terms of his agreement. That would be the company's responsibility.

Granted, this kind of story doesn't happen often. But why discourage someone when we have no idea what his invention is? Maybe we are looking at the next Les Paul. What would have happened to Les if he developed his guitars and recorders without protecting himself or having someone as a partner to do it?

BTW, that concept where the person who had an idea first cannot infringe a later filed patent? That is not correct. That works only if you reduced the idea to practice AND there was a sale, offer for sale or some kind of "public use," AND it can be proven. Furthermore, speaking of cost, how much would it cost to defend yourself in court against an infringement charge, win or lose? Just some thoughts...

Really, all I am saying is get the facts and weigh the cost against the potential of the idea. It costs nothing to consult with a professional and find out.

Which clearly doesn't fit into the low dollar, low volume criteria I spelled out earlier.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

I have went through the patent pending process on our neck templates, but the cost to patent the template just didn't make economical sense. If you can find an item that can be used by the masses, then it is worth the investment. My cousin makes a living off of his patents, and he has had to defend them twice. But they are radiology machines that are used in just about every office in the country. So there is big money in it. For me, it would have costed about $6-10,000 for the patent, and if it ever went to court, it could cost up to $100,000 to defend. For this type of product where you have such a small number of customers using it, it just didn't make sense. Plus, if someone wanted to duplicate my templates, it would require a programmer and a laser cutter, and it is not an easy thing to do. Hope that helps! Listen to Steven, he has some great insight, and in fact I had asked him some advice when we were thinking of getting this patented. I also talked to a local patent attorney. If you are unsure, find a local attorney and get them to explain all the ins and outs of patenting.

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

Well, I had a teriffic idea for a new kind of string. I researched the data base from the patent office, and there seemed to be nothing like it. So, I filed the patent, with an attorney helping. The patent office then provided me with copies of three other patent applications that had already been filed by others that beat me to it.

So far, the string is not on the market, so I assume that the holder of the patent either lost interest or has difficulty develping the technology.

Hi Guys,

I have several patents through various companies. I can tell you it is not a cheap process.
The initial patent can cost you 10-20 k for the U.S. only plus annual maintenance fees around 1k per year.
Now if you want to get a global patent you can expect to pay about 100k plus annual maintenance fees
for the various countries of protection. So for a small guy, you better make sure you have a very good
chance of getting your money back if you go forward.

On the other hand if you do have a idea and you dont want to be prevented from using it the best
thing to do is to make it public, that way it can be classified as prior art and you're protected.
The creative commons is a good way to document the idea and time it was made available to the public,
never thought of that avenue...good idea.

Regards - Luc

Wow thanks for the replys folks
after seeing some of the figures i dont think ill be patenting anything
reasons being that im not buisness minded ,im broke ,probearly done allready on classicals

I knew what my friend said .....

" get a picture of yourself with the machine in the gardai station with todays paper
send the picture to yourself and sell the idea to s.. ... "

was way way too easy (i must have been um... tired
just to clarify one thing

Can i do anything without spending money to make this possibly worthwhile ?
thanks again for reading/replying
tomas

Strange things go on in the intellectual property world! For instance, a fairly common strategy in the electronics industry these days is to file patents under the name of an individual who has no searchable ties with <the company> who own the work. This "hides" the idea so that anyone searching the patent database for patents filed by <the company> can't find out what they are working on. Much later on, the inventor and assignee are changed to make things right and reflect what's really going on.

FWIW, I have 6 patents to my name (none for anything guitar related though) and several more on the way, all assigned to the companies that I've worked for. Interestingly, the watch I'm wearing on my wrist right now has technology in it that's covered by one of my early patents (Integrated solar power collector and display - US Patent #5,886,688). I wish it were assigned to me - I'd be able to retire right away! Oh well.......

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Great input from everyone here - thanks for sharing your stories and opinions. All valuable.

At ASIA this spring, Grit Laskin gave a great talk and someone asked about his arm rest, which he apparently designed. He said that It doesn't make sense to patent anything that you don't have the resources to defend in court. He did ask to be credited with the description "Laskin-style arm rest" should anyone choose to use his design....

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

Thanks for that Dave- I love my Citizen solar watch- It only loses time if I forget to take my vitamin D

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

Steve,

Thanks for the valuable insight. I assume that many times you have had the obvious link between your profession and your name pointed out. I think it would be great to have a lawyer named Court-right. No offense intended. Great info from you and a great name to go with it.

Ed

Thanks, Ed! You will have to believe me when I say that I had no intention of doing this for a living. In fact, it still chafes me that I am not smart enough to figure out how to make a living tramping through the trout streams in the high country of the Rocky Mountains or some such thing.

Sorry, slightly off topic.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Patent applyed for does not mean awarded by the way

Yes, but I could determine that I would not get it. There were three others with the same idea filed before mine, and they were well described. I had nothing new or different than what was already filed. The others might have been issued, too, but I do not recall.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=bergman.IN.&s2=string.TTL.&OS=IN/bergman+AND+TTL/string&RS=IN/bergman+AND+TTL/string

Here is link to Bill's published application fyi. It is an application for a patent for a musical instrument string wherein the string is made of plastic and has metallic particles incorporated into the plastic.

Cool idea, Bill. Sorry if it had been done before. Curious: did you have a professional search done before filing the application?

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

No, I did not have a professional search. The fee for the search was about 50% again of the fee to file for the patent. Inasmuch as I trusted my Patent Office search (which maybe I used incorrectly), I thought I was better off not wasting the money for the seach and just going ahead with the filing.

Next brilliant guitar idea I'll check with you.

Another problem i see with patenting tools or jigs/templates is what is stopping me from building and using these in my shop with disregard to your patent? Nothing really. As long as i don't try to sell them there is not much you can do to prevent me from using them.

!) I believe that patent law allows anybody to copy patented ideas for their own personal use, but you cannot sell the item. I do not know how that might apply to making a copy of a machine and using it in your own factory.

2) I once saw a US govenment job posting for a field biologist in Alaska to catch salmon and release them, then snorkel around in the stream and observe how stressed the released fish were.

Filippo - that is a very worthy pipe dream indeed. I hope you get to do it someday.

You seem very well informed regarding provisional applications. Provisional patent applications are indeed good to establish a date with the USPTO. The filing fee is almost nothing. However, they expire after one year and are not examined, and thus, do not result in a granted patent and do not afford any protection (other than the benefit of the filing date). Very good idea if you want to buy time to consider your next moves, find a licensee or partner, etc. or develop your invention further. You can file a regular patent application within one year and keep the benefit of the provisional filing date. It is a strategy we use much of the time.

Bill, sometimes just filing the application is the best way to go, but most of the time I recommend having a pro do a search. I hope you invent the next Abalam or whatever! BTW, the Patent Laws give the patent holder the right to "stop others from making, using or selling" the claimed invention. There was a recent case of universities being sued for using a patented monoclonal antibody for research purposes.

Just to be clear, I am happy to share information or factual stuff here on the forum. These informal conversations are not legal opinions or advise. If anyone here is serious about getting patent help, I am happy to provide names of trustworthy professionals (and I have done this), but I am not here to solicit work. I am here to learn about guitars and to help out if I can as others do here. And getting better at my other pipe dream - making guitars.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck