Official Luthiers Forum!

I don't think it's disrespectful to say that I fabricate my necks, or anything else. I would never say that "builder x" uses pre made parts.

From my website


Also from my website.


I don't think either statement is disrespectful. If I did I wouldn't have them on there. I don't see any difference between what I've said that some other builder saying he uses "precision CNC parts" or something like that. FWIW, I don't know if there's a builder saying he uses "precision CNC parts" but I bet there is.



EDIT/ADDED...... page 5!!!!!!

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

To each his own...

I personally feel that if you feel that the neck is a very important part that should not be sourced out, then by all means make the neck yourself.

However, if you feel that your time could be better spent doing something else or that you just don't enjoy making necks, or whatver.....Then by all means.....have the neck sourced out.

I agree with those on here that believe that sourcing a neck out does not diminish the quality of the insturment. However, I do believe that it could diminish the quality of the insturment as YOU see it in your own eyes. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone is different and I don't believe there is a right or wrong to this question.

I personally have made my own necks up to now. I enjoy it but at the same time I dread it. It's almost as if in my mind it's harder than what it actually is or less enjoying that it really is, so I hesitate to get it done. But when I finally do sit down and start making the neck and finishing it up, it's a great feeling. As crazy as it seems, that feeling is one of my favorites throughout the guitar building process even though it's also one of my least favorite tasks to work on.

There's no right or wrong. Just do what you feel and you can't go wrong.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

In my mind, this is clear as glass......If the luthier controlled the cutting tool, it's handmade. If a machine controlled the cutting tool, it ain't!


????? disclosure??
I'm a big fan of Jim Olson & his incredible work. But he's very up front about his methods... lazer cut tops, backs, braces.... CNC carved necks, inlays & pockets etc. I think that's admirable.

If someone with more specific skills/equipment & is able to spray & finish the guitar, is it still handmade? Of course!
If someone teaches a machine to follow a toolpath & duplicate a neck, is it still handmade? No!

You're right John, it is a philosophical discussion ... no easy answer. Fun though!

(end of rant...need more beer..)
(note: th opinions expressed are those of the author and in no way...yada...yada...yada)

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Dave
Milton, ON

I try to get the profile and dimensions defined at the 1st and 8th frets. I've made a mold of a Taylor neck for one player and made another to dimensions supplied by the musician. In both cases, we talked through some specific ideas related to neck asymmetry. For the few pros that I have come in contact with, the neck feel and shape are their single biggest concern.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Dave Stewart - how is using a router jig different from using a CNC machine? In the case of a router jig, the jig is controlling the precise movements of the cutting tool - the operator is just pushing it. Nobody cuts this stuff "freehand". Well, OK, maybe the Padma does...but he's got his own thing going on there! In the case of a CNC, the luthier does control every aspect of the tool movement. Their hand may not be physically pushing it, but it is certainly under their control.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

There's a lot of words and phrases that have the term "hand" in them; they don't all mean the same thing.

A tool is a HANDTOOL.
A part is made BY HAND
A tool is used FREE-HAND
A guitar is HANDMADE.

These all have different meanings. To me:

A "handtool" is a tool that doesn't have a tail. The other "HAND" words/phrases have nothing to do with whether I'm using a handtool.

Making a part "by hand" means that my hands were pushing either the tool or the wood in order to make a cut. As opposed to a CNC machine or the like. It does not matter whether you are using a handtool, or using the tool free-hand.

Using a tool "free-hand" means that the direction of the cut is controlled by my hands, rather than a jig or motorized tool.

"Handmade" means just what the dictionary says it means -- made by hand, as opposed to by machine. While I agree that a term may have a different dictionary definition than the way a term is commonly used in an industry, I do not agree that the term handmade has become a term of art with a commonly-understood meaning (other than the dictionary definition) in the guitar industry. Instead, I would say that luthiers commonly give the term whatever meaning is required for them to be able to say that their guitars are handmade.

I admit that I am guilty of giving the term "handmade" my own meaning when I use it. To me, it means that everything on the guitar that is wood is something I made out of lumber that anyone could purchase at a decent hardwood store (assuming they had the species in stock). Not made by a computer-controlled machine, or by someone else, but by me. With that said, I always explain it to people that way rather than assuming someone who walks into my shop uses the term the same way I do.

Filippo, thanks for that, I appreciate it.



Parser, please.....you're clearly trolling for someone to make you feel all comfy with CNC'ing a build & calling it handmade. It's not gonna be me. Craftsmen for centuries have been using "guides" to control the path of their cutting tools.
Todays technology allows CAM to do operations that include a)"gruntwork" b)hazard and c)precision, not typical of the human touch without a great deal of SKILL. Unless you can devise a program that detects & adjusts for variance of figure, grain direction, density and eveything else going on in wood (as opposed to metal) there is no substitute for the skill. (..and it still wouldn't be made by "hand", clearly!)

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Dave
Milton, ON

The tasks that require one to adjust for grain, stiffness, etc.. are obviously not suitable for a CNC. Based on the fact that the vast majority of the time I spend building an acoustic guitar is "hand work" (sanding, voicing, fitting, etc..), I feel fine referring to my work as handmade. I also publicly state on my site that I use CNC.

My point was that the two processes were equivalent. The resulting parts would be identical. Different skills resulting in the same part...but they are all skills nonetheless. If I do bristle at anything it is the implication that the CAD/CAM/CNC stuff doesn't take skill. I've got at least half a brain and I've been learning every day for the last 5 years.

If I was to be a stickler on the issue of something being 100% handmade, I'd probably have to side with the folks who don't use power tools at all. I think those are the only folks who can truly claim something to be unequivocally handmade - I think the rest of us are in some shade of grey.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

It seems like those who are using CNC for lots of stuff have a hard time to just admit that their work is not handbuild ! If my son can press the ON button on the CNC then is he a luthier ? What is the difference between a factory built guitar like Martin or Taylor compared to a handbuilt guitar if you "handmakers" also use CNC. thatmakes you factory ! not handbuilt. I have over the time seen soo many of you all praise Ervin Somogyi ! Let me ask you, does he make his own necks, bridges etc or does he have someone else or a machine do it for him ? I dont know Just askin . Now, if you think it goes faster with using CNC and have a neck that is programmed to your specs that you make it by hand, then I see no problem with it. allthough, it is not then a handbuilt neck, and in this sence not a fully handbuilt instrument.
I see a difference between those who call it business and make guitars like martins, then it dont matter if its cnc:d as martin does that to, but if making a exclusive handbuilt guitar to the specs of a customer, then its a bit streange to call it handbuilt. If Olsen does CNC, dont make it right to miss-use the termonologi of the word.

[quote]f someone with more specific skills/equipment & is able to spray & finish the guitar, is it still handmade? Of course!
If someone teaches a machine to follow a toolpath & duplicate a neck, is it still handmade? No!/quote]
Could not agree more. !!
Seen from the eyes of the buyer, I think most of them think as buying a handmade guitar that its handmade, made by hands, opposite of machine.
to use machines in the sence of bandsaw etc etc. its still a person behind the weel . CNC = you press the button, then take a cup of coffee.
So if the customes calls while the CNC is in use, what will you answer him, "the neck is being done as we speak" .

Lars.

When I take a commission it is understood that the customer gets to dictate his neck shape. When I get to the point where the neck is nearing final shape , the neck is given to the customer for acceptance and to make notes on where the changes need to be made.
A neck on a custom guitar is what makes the guitar special . We all have a certain idea of what a neck needs to feel like but it is a very personal thing. The hand of the player needs to have the chance to feel the neck and custom the fit for that hand. What feels comfortable for one may not feel good to another.
We start with a nut width and string spacing and work from there . If they have a neck they like you can take profiles off that neck with heavy solder and make patterns with them.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

True. But To me at least, skill is when you can get the same result twice without the help of a machine. what you say now John is just what Martin, Taylor etc does. wich is factory. I dont think stradivarius violins were all the same if inspected closely, thats the beauty of "Handmade" to me at least.

Lars

I talk to the customer to see what they generally like and I either have them take measurements, or I have some data on common martin, gibson, taylor necks plus a handfull of radius guages from Tracy. I generally set the thickness of the neck at the first and 10th and then carve with a rasp, microplane and sanding sticks.

I pretty much free hand carve the shaft of the neck, I do periodically check with a radius guage to see that it is not way out of whack, but I carve to what feels good in my hands. What I find is that this is slightly asymetrical. I think this feels a little "warmer"(?) than CNC'd necks that have been drawn in a vacuum (I suppose if a hand made neck was digitized and cut it would probably not suffer from this, but that is another discussion)

Then I have lately been sending a pretty-closed-to-finished neck to the customer to feel and respond to. I have found this to be very helpful and the data you get back is very interesting and instructive.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

John makes a good point about getting the neck in the hand of the player. IMO, that's the key in building a custom guitar... whether the neck is totally hand carved or not is irrelevant. I think we once again covered all the bases on the CNC vs. Hand carve issue.

So in response to Filippo's feedback and gentle nudge, I'm going to relate a real-life neck building situation that will hopefully generate some opinions and feedback:

I made a guitar for a local pro musician. At the point where I had the fretted FB glued on and the profile closely established with more meat than the mold I had made from his Taylor, I let him have it for a week. I was hoping that I would then be able to get his feedback and final profile while he waited. After a few days he returned and said he wanted it exactly as is!!! It was no way close to the Taylor and I showed him that. Nevertheless, he was certain that it was what he wanted...and that's what customers pay for...so he got it.

3 months after he received the guitar and played it regularly at events and in studio sessions, he sheepishly and apologetically told me that it was difficult for him to form several chord shapes... and while he loved the sound of the guitar, the neck was just too big. Well, rather than kick his ass right there, I just said, "I told you so!" (the latter was hardly as satisfying as the former would have been...LOL) The next step was to make the neck right. I said that I would reduce the profile to his absolute liking at no charge from me but that he would be required to cover the cost of re-finishing. So with the strings still on, I proceeded to rasp, file and sand that beautiful finish until I got it to where he thought he wanted it. I was hoping he'd puke as I cut through the finish (I almost did). I sent him off with the guitar and a light shellac coating on the freshly sanded neck surface and told him to just play it. Within a 2 week period he stopped by several times to have me tweak here or there. In actual fact, it turned out to be a great experience because I got immediate feedback and ultimately we were able to finalize his asymmetrical preferences...something that will definitely benefit future builds. All is well now and the bottom line is that I learned far more from this experience than I could have learned otherwise.

Going forward, I'm seriously considering having only the body finished and then working closely with the player to finalize the neck exactly as he wants. I use a bolt-on FB as well as heel, so it's easy to remove and replace the neck. Of course, the tradeoff is that it takes longer for the finished guitar to ultimately be delivered to the player. I'd be interested in feedback and opinions on this from both experienced players and builders so feel free to take your shots.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I agree with the statement that pushing the tool (either manual or power) warrants the term "hand made", CNC however does not. I do not think that using a CNC to carve a neck is in any way detrimental to the finished product (from my limited knowledge of the technology).
Before I started this guitar making journey I was seriously in the market for a "handmade" acoustic, but the thought that certain parts were not made from rough stock by the luthier never crossed my mind, it was just a non-issue, I was shopping for the end product not the process, and I firmly believe that any small shop luthiers product is going to be better than a factory guitar regardless of the processes used... there is just a whole lot more room for quality control.
Does a CNC made neck make a guitar not "handmade"? I dont know... its just a matter of opinion, and I have no problem either way with what one concludes.

There is also the situation where someone (a guitar player) has become used to a certain neck shape but in reality it is not ideal. I have had customers take guitars from me and initially bristle at the neck (with the promise that I would remedy it if they didn't come around) but soon they get used to the new shape and either do not want the neck changed or much less so then before. As JJ pointed out, it is not as simple as the customer always knows best. On the other hand, it can be difficult to find a way to try to explain to someone that they may be happier in the long run with a neck shape different than what they are very used to.

In terms of what I have been preferring in necks I have been making a slight V at the nut and having it round out closer to the heel. Like Brock said, I like a bit of asymmetry also. Interestingly, I have moved the center point towards the treble and bass sides and prefer both to exactly in the center.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Great comments all around. I think this discussion has certainly helped me codify my thoughts on the subject.

I think those building without any power tools are 100% handmade. Those who are building with limited power tools are some proportion less than that. Those of us who are building with CNC as well as other power tools are somewhat lower yet in terms of a % handmade.

On my own necks I actually have yet to arrive at a neck that I feel is "perfect". I have actually been carving them oversized intentionally so that I can play around with the shape a bit. When I do make one that I love, I'll digitize the heck out of it and carve 'em all like that.

In the words of my former employer, Paul Smith:

“We don’t do something just because that’s the traditional way. If the best possible guitar results from using a robot for one procedure and a lot of hand-sanding or hand-inlaying for another, then that’s how we do it. Our tradition is a byproduct of our quality, so excellence is always the goal. We never lose sight of that.”

Whew!

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Let me clarify...I did in fact send the neck out. The neck that I let him have for a week had the FB and frets installed....probably similar to what Brock described. The neck was incapable of being played on the guitar at that time since the body was unfinished and the bridge had not yet been glued on.

As far as seeing the guy play, he played many times in the shop...both the Taylor as well as some of my guitars. We actually had a good definition of what he wanted in a neck. My big mistake was to allow him to have the neck before it was profiled exactly to the Taylor. He saw the "new shape" as something he thought he wanted...about which he later was remorseful. Had I just done what I had originally planned to do, both of us would have been happy. Lesson learned.

My point going forward relates to actually letting him play the guitar before the neck is finished but attached to the guitar body that IS finished...and then working the final profile with him in the shop. Of course that's only effective with a local musician. In the case of a distant musician it will obviously be too complex and expensive.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I guess that it's just me, but I don't take the CNC vs "handmade" stuff too seriously. I don't CNC necks because I don't have a CNC and the CAD work and programming for those machines is way too complicated for me. Give me a block of wood, a spoke shave, chisel, and some rasps, and I'm good to go. I realize that I could buy CNC'd necks, but I guess that I am just too cheap for that.

As far as someone wanting a guitar because it was "handmade" by me, well, I guess the only person that would have mattered to would have been my dear old mom. Others just seem to want what they believe to be a "better" instrument based on sound and playability. In any case, the idea that a CNC'd part is pulled out of the machine in a finished form isn't true. Although all of the rough carving is done, it still requires skill to do the final forming, fit and finish.

I think that the real issue boils down to the luthier's pride in his or her own work. Those that "hand build" everything are very proud of that fact, and they should be. On the other hand, those that may not make every part are also proud of their work, and they should be. They also make some beautiful, great sounding and great playing instruments.

I really like seeing people that take such pride in their work and are passionate about what they do...that's what makes these instruments special.

Didn't read all the posts, so apologies if someone has been over this.

It is very hard for someone not experienced in handling necks off the body to know if the neck is the way they would like it by having only the neck in their hands. It's hard with the neck on a body that isn't strung up. It's even hard with strings on before the guitar is set up. So I don't see much point in sending a rough shaped neck to someone to ask how they like it, and not a lot of point in sending the finish shaped neck for that purpose, either. I listen to their description of what they like, which guitars they like, and make the neck they way I think they will like it, which isn't exactly a copy of any other neck, because I think I can improve on a factory neck, even if the player likes that factory neck. I consider this to be part of why they have come to me. I have actually never had a complaint about neck shape.

Re Pye: Todd, I suggest some rereading. Pye never says that workmanship of risk is necessarily of better quality, or that a piece made by workmanship of certainty can't be as good or sometimes better. His point is that workmanship of risk allows for flexibility and ongoing creativity in design that doesn't happen with certainty workmanship, if I'm understanding him.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

JJ said


I suspect a large percentage of "us" are also players, not just builders. Give the neck a good feel on your favorite guitar. Then take the strings off, and it will feel too small.


I've also re profiled a neck that a client thought felt "right" before the guitar was completed. Possible something to stick on the fingerboard to make up for the missing strings could help.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I rough out blanks 8-10 or so at a time
And then do all the finishing by hand depending on what I'm after (profile, thickness width, etc.)
Whether or not you use someone else's product and all the philosophical discussions related to that decision is, in my opinion, personal and dependent on the capacities of your shop and time/money considerations.
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Yeah, I send the neck out for them to get a feel for, and make comments on. I am not sure how typical it is, but my customers spend about half our discussions on the neck "feel" so in order to get a sense for whether we are on the same page I send it to them and let them feel it, hold it in there hands, and make notes on it in pencil if they want any changes.

I have found the feedback to be very insightful, particularly with what people seem to want as compared with their teminology.

Howard raises some very good points, and I have mentioned these to customers who get necks to check out, but even still we are not blindly stabbing in the dark.

I don't particularly find it inefficient simply because I build so few per year (12ish) and while the neck is out I can either be cleaning up the body or getting the next guitar prepped.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I think we'd all like to earn the place that Howard describes...trust and credibility that our decisions more often anticipate and achieve the best interest of the player. So we keep plugging along.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

To nudge things back a little to the OP's intent (I think)...
I've definitely gotten commissions specifically because clients wanted something simply not available off the rack, more often than not because they had huge hands that most necks couldn't satisfy. Usually I tell them to find what sort of guitar they like best, then build something 'in the spirit of' with a neck to their liking. The vast majority of my commissions are from local people, so I have them over to cop a feel before I do the final sanding. There's been a few requests for assymetry, flattening, rounding, C'ing, U'ing etc. Everyone has come away satisfied. But I also find that most people aren't as picky as I would have thought. I have them play around with the piles and piles of various guitars I have amassed over 15 years or so, and it usually ends up something along the lines of "more like this than that, thanks" and be done with it. But I admit I have a pretty rough and tumble approach it all. I care way more about music than guitars, so if someone cracks out a ruler and starts counting grain lines I show them the door. They are but instruments after all...
As for your personal philosophy Fillipo, I wager that after you've carved a few necks you'll wonder why you thought it might be difficult in the first place. A glance at the snappies of your first build shows us you'll get the chops in short order!
Cheers!

My take is to be considered a guitars builder you must have the skills to build an instrument totally without the need of prefab parts. Now I'm not saying you must also make your own tuners (now if you have the skills like some do to do this I'm really impressed) and process your own bone stock for nuts but i feel if you can't make a neck and fingerboard from some board and build an entire body and a bridge your not a builder. Your an assembler. Now for the pro who has paid his dues i see no problem with prefab parts since most times he's pumping out more then a few instruments and is most time in a time crunch. But if you are building just a few instruments a year I see no reason why your not building necks too...mike