Official Luthiers Forum!

Lost me Howard

New approach...think I'll outsource the bodies and sand them when I get them. I'll do the necks and stick my hand made label on the finished guitars.....?

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Yo, Michael

thank you for coming from the heart regarding this situation.

Oh to walk the middle path with integrity.


Icu
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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ok i assume you asking me which side of the fence I reside. That is hard to answer. I will say I belive anyone that builds for sale had best be able to build necks or any and all parts of the instrument. I don't belive that having necks outsourced removes the instrament from being classified as handcrafted. I too really enjoy hand carving necks I enjoy laminating blanks. However I have found myself at times taking advantage of both the labor savings and time savings of outsourced necks and bridges on probably 5% of the builds I have done.

I just will not on a publuc forum tell someone that admits to using outsourced components that they don't make hand crafted instruments. Not my place to do so.

Filppo,

I hope I did not make my post sound like I thought someone had been rude in this thread. I tried to be sure that I did not. I understood your point to the post and I agree with you on the value and art of neck fabrication. But there was a preface that using outsourced necks showed or implied a lack of skill (chops) That lead to the typical deviation in to the hand made issue. and it is always touchy because we all have our opinion and it is often hard to express our depth of conviction without stepping on others toes. My comments was only to suggest we continue to take a moment to consider both sides before posting statements on the value or worth of others work.

What I meant was, you seem to be advocating that if someone chooses to use a neck made by someone else, that should not be a ground for criticism. But if no one has a right to take away credit or title to another person's labor, that raises this question: if you use a neck someone else made and put your name on the guitar, are you taking away credit or title to someone else's labor?

This has been a polite and respectful thread for four pages, so I don't see much relevance to the issue of disrespect or name calling.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Nom'as

Well, then the next logical question for me becomes: is it considered disrespectful for a builder's website to feature the fact that he goes through the effort to control and fabricate his necks rather than purchase them? While I personally feel that a player might wish to know the level of control and hand craftsmanship it in no way is intended to demean a fellow builder. What say you?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Well dudes,

Is like me old profile signature....

"If it gets the pig clean ~ use it"

and just like in the movies, go ahead, lead your client down the garden path... but do the disclosure thing... run the credits... spread the butter around... lay the word on them... tell it like it is.... you know... be up front with the client about building their ax.

Nice, clean, simple, sleep gooder at night type karma.

Well that me take on this topic and with some duck tape me sticken to it, .



Icu
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Sorry Howard ,I didn`t mean to do any errant reading into,And I`m not condemning people for using parts they didn`t make.I can understand the need.BUT if I did for example use a CNC neck,I think it would only be fair to say so and who made it .
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I don’t know where the line should be drawn either. But I do believe that machined parts can be every bit as good as hand made and sometimes better. And I believe the reverse of that statement is also true.

When it comes to necks I will use what I believe to be best for the project I’m working on. I don’t advertize that my instruments are “handmade” as I use far too many machines and powers tools to make that claim.

The previous notes have given me pause for thought. If you agree that the neck should be handmade to claim the handmade label and that the neck is every bit as important as the sound board to luthiery would you not also agree that to maintain the “handmade” label you should also hand plane your tops and sides?

I only ask this to understand why certain parts of a guitar are deemed to be in the realm of handmade and can therefore promote the handmade label, whereas other parts are exempted from the equation. Maybe in today’s world there is no such thing as handmade guitars just handcrafted.

I hope I haven’t offended anyone here as I have enjoyed this read and the coffee.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

Martin advertises hand made guitars and I feel as long as the final shaping needs to be done by hand so be it . At what point to do you draw the line. I don't think you have to cut the tree down and process the wood to call it handmade . It is a personal choice and it is between the buyer and seller . This is a business and what matters is private between the customer and the business man.
As long as one is selling a guitar that he built , that is all that matters , but you can't condemn anyone for using a service to aid things along. If you condemn one for not carving ones own necks , but you don't do your own finish then again , you are not being fair. I guess I am saying is is about ones personal philosophy . Build and be happy that you have someone that will buy it.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I don't think it's disrespectful to say that I fabricate my necks, or anything else. I would never say that "builder x" uses pre made parts.

From my website


Also from my website.


I don't think either statement is disrespectful. If I did I wouldn't have them on there. I don't see any difference between what I've said that some other builder saying he uses "precision CNC parts" or something like that. FWIW, I don't know if there's a builder saying he uses "precision CNC parts" but I bet there is.



EDIT/ADDED...... page 5!!!!!!

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

To each his own...

I personally feel that if you feel that the neck is a very important part that should not be sourced out, then by all means make the neck yourself.

However, if you feel that your time could be better spent doing something else or that you just don't enjoy making necks, or whatver.....Then by all means.....have the neck sourced out.

I agree with those on here that believe that sourcing a neck out does not diminish the quality of the insturment. However, I do believe that it could diminish the quality of the insturment as YOU see it in your own eyes. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone is different and I don't believe there is a right or wrong to this question.

I personally have made my own necks up to now. I enjoy it but at the same time I dread it. It's almost as if in my mind it's harder than what it actually is or less enjoying that it really is, so I hesitate to get it done. But when I finally do sit down and start making the neck and finishing it up, it's a great feeling. As crazy as it seems, that feeling is one of my favorites throughout the guitar building process even though it's also one of my least favorite tasks to work on.

There's no right or wrong. Just do what you feel and you can't go wrong.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

In my mind, this is clear as glass......If the luthier controlled the cutting tool, it's handmade. If a machine controlled the cutting tool, it ain't!


????? disclosure??
I'm a big fan of Jim Olson & his incredible work. But he's very up front about his methods... lazer cut tops, backs, braces.... CNC carved necks, inlays & pockets etc. I think that's admirable.

If someone with more specific skills/equipment & is able to spray & finish the guitar, is it still handmade? Of course!
If someone teaches a machine to follow a toolpath & duplicate a neck, is it still handmade? No!

You're right John, it is a philosophical discussion ... no easy answer. Fun though!

(end of rant...need more beer..)
(note: th opinions expressed are those of the author and in no way...yada...yada...yada)

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Dave
Milton, ON

I try to get the profile and dimensions defined at the 1st and 8th frets. I've made a mold of a Taylor neck for one player and made another to dimensions supplied by the musician. In both cases, we talked through some specific ideas related to neck asymmetry. For the few pros that I have come in contact with, the neck feel and shape are their single biggest concern.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Dave Stewart - how is using a router jig different from using a CNC machine? In the case of a router jig, the jig is controlling the precise movements of the cutting tool - the operator is just pushing it. Nobody cuts this stuff "freehand". Well, OK, maybe the Padma does...but he's got his own thing going on there! In the case of a CNC, the luthier does control every aspect of the tool movement. Their hand may not be physically pushing it, but it is certainly under their control.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

There's a lot of words and phrases that have the term "hand" in them; they don't all mean the same thing.

A tool is a HANDTOOL.
A part is made BY HAND
A tool is used FREE-HAND
A guitar is HANDMADE.

These all have different meanings. To me:

A "handtool" is a tool that doesn't have a tail. The other "HAND" words/phrases have nothing to do with whether I'm using a handtool.

Making a part "by hand" means that my hands were pushing either the tool or the wood in order to make a cut. As opposed to a CNC machine or the like. It does not matter whether you are using a handtool, or using the tool free-hand.

Using a tool "free-hand" means that the direction of the cut is controlled by my hands, rather than a jig or motorized tool.

"Handmade" means just what the dictionary says it means -- made by hand, as opposed to by machine. While I agree that a term may have a different dictionary definition than the way a term is commonly used in an industry, I do not agree that the term handmade has become a term of art with a commonly-understood meaning (other than the dictionary definition) in the guitar industry. Instead, I would say that luthiers commonly give the term whatever meaning is required for them to be able to say that their guitars are handmade.

I admit that I am guilty of giving the term "handmade" my own meaning when I use it. To me, it means that everything on the guitar that is wood is something I made out of lumber that anyone could purchase at a decent hardwood store (assuming they had the species in stock). Not made by a computer-controlled machine, or by someone else, but by me. With that said, I always explain it to people that way rather than assuming someone who walks into my shop uses the term the same way I do.

Filippo, thanks for that, I appreciate it.



Parser, please.....you're clearly trolling for someone to make you feel all comfy with CNC'ing a build & calling it handmade. It's not gonna be me. Craftsmen for centuries have been using "guides" to control the path of their cutting tools.
Todays technology allows CAM to do operations that include a)"gruntwork" b)hazard and c)precision, not typical of the human touch without a great deal of SKILL. Unless you can devise a program that detects & adjusts for variance of figure, grain direction, density and eveything else going on in wood (as opposed to metal) there is no substitute for the skill. (..and it still wouldn't be made by "hand", clearly!)

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Dave
Milton, ON

The tasks that require one to adjust for grain, stiffness, etc.. are obviously not suitable for a CNC. Based on the fact that the vast majority of the time I spend building an acoustic guitar is "hand work" (sanding, voicing, fitting, etc..), I feel fine referring to my work as handmade. I also publicly state on my site that I use CNC.

My point was that the two processes were equivalent. The resulting parts would be identical. Different skills resulting in the same part...but they are all skills nonetheless. If I do bristle at anything it is the implication that the CAD/CAM/CNC stuff doesn't take skill. I've got at least half a brain and I've been learning every day for the last 5 years.

If I was to be a stickler on the issue of something being 100% handmade, I'd probably have to side with the folks who don't use power tools at all. I think those are the only folks who can truly claim something to be unequivocally handmade - I think the rest of us are in some shade of grey.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

It seems like those who are using CNC for lots of stuff have a hard time to just admit that their work is not handbuild ! If my son can press the ON button on the CNC then is he a luthier ? What is the difference between a factory built guitar like Martin or Taylor compared to a handbuilt guitar if you "handmakers" also use CNC. thatmakes you factory ! not handbuilt. I have over the time seen soo many of you all praise Ervin Somogyi ! Let me ask you, does he make his own necks, bridges etc or does he have someone else or a machine do it for him ? I dont know Just askin . Now, if you think it goes faster with using CNC and have a neck that is programmed to your specs that you make it by hand, then I see no problem with it. allthough, it is not then a handbuilt neck, and in this sence not a fully handbuilt instrument.
I see a difference between those who call it business and make guitars like martins, then it dont matter if its cnc:d as martin does that to, but if making a exclusive handbuilt guitar to the specs of a customer, then its a bit streange to call it handbuilt. If Olsen does CNC, dont make it right to miss-use the termonologi of the word.

[quote]f someone with more specific skills/equipment & is able to spray & finish the guitar, is it still handmade? Of course!
If someone teaches a machine to follow a toolpath & duplicate a neck, is it still handmade? No!/quote]
Could not agree more. !!
Seen from the eyes of the buyer, I think most of them think as buying a handmade guitar that its handmade, made by hands, opposite of machine.
to use machines in the sence of bandsaw etc etc. its still a person behind the weel . CNC = you press the button, then take a cup of coffee.
So if the customes calls while the CNC is in use, what will you answer him, "the neck is being done as we speak" .

Lars.

When I take a commission it is understood that the customer gets to dictate his neck shape. When I get to the point where the neck is nearing final shape , the neck is given to the customer for acceptance and to make notes on where the changes need to be made.
A neck on a custom guitar is what makes the guitar special . We all have a certain idea of what a neck needs to feel like but it is a very personal thing. The hand of the player needs to have the chance to feel the neck and custom the fit for that hand. What feels comfortable for one may not feel good to another.
We start with a nut width and string spacing and work from there . If they have a neck they like you can take profiles off that neck with heavy solder and make patterns with them.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

True. But To me at least, skill is when you can get the same result twice without the help of a machine. what you say now John is just what Martin, Taylor etc does. wich is factory. I dont think stradivarius violins were all the same if inspected closely, thats the beauty of "Handmade" to me at least.

Lars

I talk to the customer to see what they generally like and I either have them take measurements, or I have some data on common martin, gibson, taylor necks plus a handfull of radius guages from Tracy. I generally set the thickness of the neck at the first and 10th and then carve with a rasp, microplane and sanding sticks.

I pretty much free hand carve the shaft of the neck, I do periodically check with a radius guage to see that it is not way out of whack, but I carve to what feels good in my hands. What I find is that this is slightly asymetrical. I think this feels a little "warmer"(?) than CNC'd necks that have been drawn in a vacuum (I suppose if a hand made neck was digitized and cut it would probably not suffer from this, but that is another discussion)

Then I have lately been sending a pretty-closed-to-finished neck to the customer to feel and respond to. I have found this to be very helpful and the data you get back is very interesting and instructive.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

John makes a good point about getting the neck in the hand of the player. IMO, that's the key in building a custom guitar... whether the neck is totally hand carved or not is irrelevant. I think we once again covered all the bases on the CNC vs. Hand carve issue.

So in response to Filippo's feedback and gentle nudge, I'm going to relate a real-life neck building situation that will hopefully generate some opinions and feedback:

I made a guitar for a local pro musician. At the point where I had the fretted FB glued on and the profile closely established with more meat than the mold I had made from his Taylor, I let him have it for a week. I was hoping that I would then be able to get his feedback and final profile while he waited. After a few days he returned and said he wanted it exactly as is!!! It was no way close to the Taylor and I showed him that. Nevertheless, he was certain that it was what he wanted...and that's what customers pay for...so he got it.

3 months after he received the guitar and played it regularly at events and in studio sessions, he sheepishly and apologetically told me that it was difficult for him to form several chord shapes... and while he loved the sound of the guitar, the neck was just too big. Well, rather than kick his ass right there, I just said, "I told you so!" (the latter was hardly as satisfying as the former would have been...LOL) The next step was to make the neck right. I said that I would reduce the profile to his absolute liking at no charge from me but that he would be required to cover the cost of re-finishing. So with the strings still on, I proceeded to rasp, file and sand that beautiful finish until I got it to where he thought he wanted it. I was hoping he'd puke as I cut through the finish (I almost did). I sent him off with the guitar and a light shellac coating on the freshly sanded neck surface and told him to just play it. Within a 2 week period he stopped by several times to have me tweak here or there. In actual fact, it turned out to be a great experience because I got immediate feedback and ultimately we were able to finalize his asymmetrical preferences...something that will definitely benefit future builds. All is well now and the bottom line is that I learned far more from this experience than I could have learned otherwise.

Going forward, I'm seriously considering having only the body finished and then working closely with the player to finalize the neck exactly as he wants. I use a bolt-on FB as well as heel, so it's easy to remove and replace the neck. Of course, the tradeoff is that it takes longer for the finished guitar to ultimately be delivered to the player. I'd be interested in feedback and opinions on this from both experienced players and builders so feel free to take your shots.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com