Official Luthiers Forum!

I make my own guitar necks, and most other parts as well. The obvious exception is fret wire, tuners, electronics and cases. I try to do everything else myself.....as my name is going on it.....I don't claim to be the best that's for sure.....but you will get a True guitar

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I hope my response to Michael didn't come off as preachy. I really don't know where the line should be drawn. I mostly wanted to make the point that people don't just care about what things are; they care about how they came about. This is more so in the case of a luthier built guitar than with most goods.

Disclosure has to do with what one thinks clients are assuming. If things are not as they may reasonably be expected to assume, then that should be disclosed. My sense is that manufactured necks made by others are not expected. There may be gray areas depending on some of the details of the guitar, builder, and client.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

For finishing, when you let your customer know you send it out, you don't have to say it like it's some kind of disclaimer. Fit it in to the coversation as a passing comment, something you do because it makes the product better. "I use the best finishing guy in the Western US. He does amazing work." If the customer just wants the best possible end product, he'll be happy to hear that you're excited about your way of getting out the best product. If the customer is really looking for you to do it all, then it's best you correct his expectations up front.

As for what you disclose, I agree that it's all about expectations. If you are 100% sure your customer doesn't expect you to do the finishing, carve the neck, make the bridge, inlay the fingerboard, or whatever, then no need to disclose. But if there's any doubt, err on the side of disclosing in advance. And if you rehearse it a bit, you'll find an easy way to make it sound like a positive thing.

Nothing new under the sun. There is a strong suspicion that the old Lute makers bought in their soundboards complete with pre carved rose.
In the early/mid 19th century the fancy pearl inlay in some Guitars was almost certainly cut by an outsourced worker. Many of the Classical Guitar makers of the Granada school left the finishing to a specialised French Polisher.
Making an instrument from a set of parts or a kit (and selling it as such) isn't much of a problem. Selling it as though you had made each part is misrepresentation IMO. Ultimately you have to be truthful to both the customer and yourself.
Apart from the obvious tuners/fretwire ect. the only part I don't make is the rosette - and even then that only applies to my cheaper models. I volunteer that information to the customer. The decision to 'buy in' is purely based on economic considerations.

I agree. I think this is why people get the "warm, fuzzies" when they see shots on a website of the guitar or violin maker hunched over his bench carving fine shavings (as opposed to shots of him firing up the "Fanuc")(...although Jim Olson does ok! )

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Dave
Milton, ON

I am not making guitars for a living, building only two or three a year, and other than one sale, I have generally given the guitars to family and friends or built for cost of materials. The buyer of the one guitar I sold for more than cost knew up front I would not be building the neck but knew the neck would be made to my specifications, and he still had input as to what wood was used as well as shape. It was a non-issue.

If I were professional and buyers demanded the necks be made by me, I would certainly make them. I would then be getting paid something meaningful for my time. But if I am building a guitar for a friend at my cost, I'd rather buy the neck and pass along that cost.

The whole 'assembly' or 'build' argument is a little weak in my view. Until someone resaws his own wood for backs and sides, fingerboards, bindings, and purflings, some assembly is involved. How about inlays, farming out for finishing, building a copy of a production guitar rather than one's own design? For the last guitar, the customer wanted a certain pyramid bridge. I purchased it rather than made it. Does that make it less of a custom guitar? Where does one draw the line? Personally, I have no problems putting my name on a guitar that has some level of 'assembly.' As long as I am upfront and honest, I don't see the fuss. I fully control the creative process and design. I still control 100% of the quality, and I don't think it is any less of a guitar because I didn't make the neck. If you some of you feel you have to make the neck or you are somehow less of a luthier, then by all means make it. Personally at this stage of my luthier experience, I am very comfortable with what I am doing.

I think the argument boils down to 1) What one is representing to his/her customer, and 2) Balancing time and ability to achieve the desired end product.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Ken, about the resawing... dont 99% of backs/sides/soundboards need thicknessing? That in itself is working with a raw material, not assembling a finished component.

I have to say that this thread is more interesting, enlightening and respectful than others have been over the years and I appreciate those who have contributed.

Wherever each individual wishes to draw the line Howard suggested is a personal choice based on a lot of elements to be considered. In light of that, I would like to discuss a third option I have been considering for some time which I'll call the Hybrid Option. Let me explain further:

As stated earlier, I personally feel it is important for me to be in control of the following aspects:
1)wood selection process,
2)stabilization and acclimation,
3)milling,
4)jointing, laminate selection and gluing
5)aging
6)bandsawing
7)Assurance that any twisting or warping has ceased before carving and prior to gluing up a FB

The hybridized part comes from taking my bandsawn blanks and rough CNC milling to my specification. Final profiling would be done by hand and personalized for each player. It's for this reason that I will reserve the right to purchase a CNC some day or farm out this specific operation to someone who would be willing to work under my requirements (I realize that it will be somewhat costly to setup in either case). Were it to become necessary, I could envision getting a year's supply of neck blocks made in advance and at one point let them out to the CNC operation and have my unique rough-carved blanks milled and the resulting inventory available on the shelf. Naturally, this would be necessary only if orders exceeded my ability to keep up with the demand...admittedly, a fantasy exercise in itself and an elegant problem to be faced with! <BG>

I'm not really against using CNC per se...just the idea of not having control of all the little (or not so little) details that can add up to make or break the final product. So if I have the input or decision making responsibility related to the CNC process then I can live with such choices made for the end product. And if it's important for a client to know that his builder had a hand in all of the critical processes then I feel that the hybrid approach would pass the "red-face test."

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Just to add another angle: I believe that one of the reasons that people buy hand-crafted products is that they like the idea that someone has invested of themselves in making it. This is the reason they are willing to pay for inefficiencies as compared to a factory or machine built item. An example might be a hand-knit sweater that has to cost more than a sweater that came off a knitting machine. I think this is especially true for the guitar player that wants a hand made guitar. In order to become a good guitar player requires a huge and continuing investment (in terms of practise time) of the player. Because of that, I think there's appeal in owning an instrument that someone else has had to make a personal investment in making. As Howard said, people care about how the product was created and therefore should be told.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

I make my own necks, mostly because my builds are totally one offs and need something custom each time. That said, I don't care too much for carving them by hand...always wound up about the possibility of screwing up 4 hours worth of carving and shaping with one stupid mistake. I know...that is part and parcel of the whole process, but I find that necks and binding are the only times I get crazy paranoid about it.

If I had the option to use/have a CNC, I would jump on it without hesitation! I totally agree that knowing how to make one by hand may increase your understanding of how they are put together and what makes the 'tic', but it isn't my favorite part.


-Matthew

Todd, I agree with you completely. I wish I had the time and ability to make every component, but I don't. I make those components that I can given where I am along this journey. I certainly make more than I did two years ago, but the neck itself just isn't high on my priority list given the quality of the multipiece necks I am having made.

Ed, Indeed it is, and that is precisely what I do as well. I also final shape the necks I have outsourced, laminate headstocks, cut my headstock shape, drill tuning machine holes, thickness, taper, radius, slot, inlay, and fret the fingerboard. Therefore, does that mean my neck is assembled? I am simply pointing out that the line between build and assembly can be rather fuzzy, so I have a hard time buying into that argument. But more importantly, from my view, I don't care as long as I and the new owner are happy with the quality and I am not misrepresenting my contribution to the new owner. To be successful, we have to deliver a product we are happy with and the market wants, and right now both I and my little market are happy with how I do things.

Perhaps some day I'll feel a need to carve the neck to get a certain personal level of satisfaction I am seeking or to get a neck I couldn't otherwise have a third party make. It is a journey. Until then, I am very content with my guitars made with outsourced necks.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

I am basically in the same position as Ken on this, although more like 1 or 2 a year. First one was a kit, that wound up being very modified, and every one since has more parts made instead of purchased. At this point, having just started #8, the only things outsourced are the tuners (duh) and the fingerboards and mainly for lack of tooling to cut the radius, but that will be next. The one guitar that was made specifically for someone else, we spent more time talking about the neck than anything else. Actually, it was the only thing we talked about. If I am going to put that much time and effort into making a musical instrument, I not only want it to be the best that I can do, but I also want it to be different than the last one. If I don't ever start cutting my own necks, how can I do either of those? Making my own parts, wether it be the neck, the rosette, purfling, voicing the top, even cutting the wood out of a billet, is half the fun.
BTW I do have CNCs at work, but prefer to do most of the work by hand, for the above reasons.

Just my opinion
Tim

I've done necks both ways. I really like carving the neck, but sometimes just don't have the time if I'm in a hurry to finish a project. I always have a few CNC'd necks on hand in case I run out of time, but usually I'll do it by hand. I don't think that buying a CNC'd neck is cheating because you still have to do the final carving and shaping. I've never bought a CNC'd neck that was perfectly done. I've always had to do the final carving. The only thing I didn't have to do was cut the shape on a band saw, get the heel final shaped, truss rod slot slotted, and the bolt inserts installed. Other than that, I still have to thickness the peghead, create the volute, glue on the veneers, shape the peghead, install the truss rod, glue up the fingerboard, drill the tuner holes, then final shape and sand the neck. It is still a lot of work! The CNC'd neck probably saves me 3 hours of work overall. So I'd tell my customer I bought a pre-shaped neck, but still have to do all the finishing and final shaping and this is what he is paying me for. Not everyone can buy a cnc'd neck and do the final finishing on it. This does take luthier skills, and you still need to know how to carve a neck to finish it. That is my .02.

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

I think it all comes down to why you are building. I have recommended the purchase of serviced kits to friends who don't have all the tooling needed to do a really nice job on a guitar.

The only thing I buy are raw materials and the usual tuners, strings, and pickups. I design my own guitars from the ground up, draw them all in CAD, program the CNC, design & make a lot of my own fixtures, spray my own finish, etc.. I think I do all of this because 1) I like the challenge of doing it all and 2) I want to control it all.

For those of us who sell our work, I think it all comes down to what your business model is. If you are marketing your work as being "traditionally built" then I think the burden is on you to build parts from scratch without power tools. If not, as long as you are honest and open with your customers then I would tend to think it is all fair game!

Best,
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I wonder if there are full or part time luthiers who can't make a neck.

In a perfect world, I would be cutting neck stock from wood I have been watching for a long time. Not only do I want to know what the actual pieces of wood used in my necks look like but I would prefer to know what the wood around them in the board looked like as well. This is what always gets me about outsourced necks, the level of material choice. I do not think that the people choosing the wood are necesarily choosing poor blanks, I just know that I am not the one doing it. If a customer asks what wood I chose for the neck and what glue I used where and why and how I reinforced it I want to be able to explain that. You may trust completely the person making your necks and that is great.

This is a personal choice of course, I don't want to sound like I expect that this is the "right" way to do it and bear in mind this is coming from someone who does prefer to make my own bindings and purflings, pins, resaw backs and sides etc... In other words, doing it the hard way. I do feel strongly though about making all of those choices myself and I feel they do improve the level of detail and quality of my guitars. Any part of the guitar I would be wary of openly discussing with the customer is not something I would want to be doing. And, as part of that, if you feel the outsourced neck you use is as good as you could do it and you are open about it I have absolutely no problem with it.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I am finding thing on this post amazing. While I do contact my necks , they are not finalized so I can shape the neck to a final size. I don't think there is a cnc'ed neck that is that way. I do like the control of my builds. I do resaw most of my wood and thickness all of it. I do bend all my own wood.
East Indian Rosewood is imported by me so I can control quality and ebay or kit out the cull. I buy mahogany by the skid so I can select so as you see I do like to do what is economically smart. I have started making my own fretboards as I can't find a good consistent supplier. Now I will pose this question , if I cnc'ed necks in my shop or buy them in , what is the difference ? I do have some neck patterns that run off my shaper .
I think Finish out source is best for safety. If you aren't aware of the safety hazards you need to be. I have a special spray booth I have designed that I will install this year but it is a self contained out building but it is not for guitars it will be for molds and jig spraying. Also this way it won't add to my insurance over head. Again there is a big difference between the hobby stage and the professional stage. When you go pro there as so many hidden costs that take a bite out of the profit so you need to control as much cost out lay as you can.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

A CNC seems like the modern day apprentice, just like Mickey Mouse as the Sorcerer's apprentice. It works under the master's guidance. Stradivari used apprentices to pre carve his parts, then he finished them to final thickness. The master's time, from an efficiency perspective, is best spent doing what he does better then the apprentice or machine, feel the wood and execute the final thicknessing. The master still determines if the part is up to snuff, and the apprentice's name does not appear on the final product, the apprentice or tool do not make decisions, the name on the guitar is the decision makers name.

Honest and forthright disclosure to a client is always the best policy.
Rob

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http://www.kalimbakit.com/
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2 shops worked at had different approach. One made everything but the neck and parts of it and then assembled by one guy. That has a lot to do with putting out 8-10 guitars or 400 or so a year.

Bill does it all with apprentice in shop. Each neck is made from the beginning with a particular body. No just grab a neck and a body and fit them. A lot of that is due to different orders, nut width, 7 or more strings, etc. I also in my own shop do it all but only doing 10-15 a year rather than the more than 30 Bill does. He does 95% or more Archtops. He buys the wood and mills it all himself. He even does some of the metal parts. Only thing I know he buys is lining, and other some hardware. That said he is well tooled up and many jigs and fixtures. I know several days spent updating those so things go smoother.

In my opinion Howard is right on.It is what it is.A guitar is hand made or it`s not.I personally hand carve my necks and and make every wooden guitar part in my shop,and also do the inlay.And so what if it doesn`t come out quite as good as CNC,it truly is hand made, and for me this is the experience.Personally I would never feel justified claming hand made if it wasn`t.My biggest fear is that too many will succomb to CNC and outsourcing,and the true craft of Lutherie will be lost.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

While I like being right on, you are reading something into my comments that I was trying to avoid. I was hoping this thread could be about doing it your self versus buying it from someone else who made it, and stay away from the "what is hand made?" discussion. John asked what the difference would be if he made the necks on his own CNC machine (presumably doing his own programming), or bought a neck that someone else made by CNC. The main difference would be that he made the first one, and someone else made the second. He also would have chosen the stock, made it according to his own program, controlled the process. Let's leave workmanship of risk vs. workmanship of certainty for another discussion.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

So, what if the builder carefully designs his necks, fretboards and headplates on CAD, selects and prepares the blanks in her shop, then sends them to the CNC shop which, when done, sends them back?

That's the way it's done for the shops I know which use CNC'd parts.
I'll add that a good amount of hand work is required to assemble the parts, get rid of the mill marks and arrive to a neck that feels "right". I know, I worked at a neck station for a while. For the neck stock, it's just a pre-carved chunk of mahogany…

Or does the neck need to be lovingly cut and carved with saws, knives, chisels, spokeshaves and files?

Then is a band saw OK? Table saw? A belt sander? Shaper? Router? How about a Lancelot? Are jigs allowed to qualify for the "handmade" label? What about templates?

On a personal level I do not use CNC parts, nor plan to. The investment in time and funds is not worth it for my output. Besides it's primordial to remain flexible in my designs, and making a neck from scratch takes only marginally longer than assembling CNC parts.
Furthermore I wouldn't give it away: making the neck is one of the most pleasant and relaxing parts of building for me, after the stress induced with the trim on the soundbox.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I hate this particular discussion topic. Why you may ask? Well because it always ends up putting one group on one side of the fence and one group on the other, each trying to nicely throwing rocks at the other. This leaves those of us that see both sides of the issue e.g.straddling the fence doing the most ducking to avoid the mealy.

I say this only in a metaphoric sense. Nobody has taken distasteful pop shots at me or anyone else this time around this discussion. But that has not always been the case in regards to this topic. Last year I was directly told that I was intentionally misleading my clients by calling my guitars hand crafted due to the fact I chose to outsource necks on occasion.

While this is an interesting discussion; It always tends to become theological in opinion. That is where the trouble begins. Personally I have a hard time denying anyone that puts the time in to building an instrument from calling themselves a hand builder regardless if they may chose to have outsource a component or two. In my thought process no one has the right to give or take away credit or title to another person’s labor.

No one got out of hand so far this time, but it is easy to forget that one mans concepts are not always the same as his counterparts. Neither is right or wrong. They are just different prospective.

Cheers and be thoughtfull of your fellow member opinions exspecally when they differ from yours.
Michael

This is exactly what we did at PRS. Those necks are carved very accurately to an assymetrical profile and the sanding process is really there just to clean up the little tiny scallops that are left over from machining. The sanders do some blending at the headstock and the heel, but the shape of the shank of the neck should be maintained through the process. The whole process is setup to duplicate a hand carved part. The necks are modeled to within about .005" of the hand carved prototypes and then CNC's are programmed off of those models.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Well, OK, but which way does that cut?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.