Official Luthiers Forum!

Have you considered building drums?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I think that if a luthier designs and controls manufacturing a certain part of his guitars, those still will be his luthier-made guitars. But: the term "control" might be interpreted quite fuzzy... I mean (just my opinion) only having a look at the finished neck, say "O.K." and head on to finish it wouldn't be much of control but maybe it will be in the opinion of the owner of a factory. While having a close look and doing some individual shaping on it if necessary will turn the outsourced neck into a "luthier-neck" if the luthier provided the design.

Selection of wood also comes into play: I think that outsourcing any decision will turn any guitar into a "more factory made" guitar. Also, for the same reason of not outsourcing decisions, if outsourcing and wanting the guitar to be luthier-made, nowadays CNC is the way to go.

I think there is not a really clear line to draw or, if we want to do so, in the ideal case the customer should draw it: until what degree of outsourcing he still will accept the term "luthier-made" for your guitars? O believe, letting the customer know about the building process may (or does) increase credibility and confidence, thus acknowledgment one's guitar, in spite of some outsourced parts still will be a luthier's guitar.

This subject can quickly take you into "angels on the head of a pin" and pedantry territory. I think as a builder it's down to what fits with your ethos, goals and satisfaction - the end creation is your baby and you stand by it. Personally if I haven't made the neck, bridge or done the finish it's not "mine" any more. At some stage I'd like to buy a lathe and learn woodturning so I could make bridgepins, and perhaps intricate metalwork so that I could make tuners like David Rodgers but until then I'm happy to choose the ones I like best and buy them in. I don't think I'd ever want to make my own frets, carbon fibre rods/bars or strings (but after the first change the strings aren't mine). From a customer's perspective you buy what "floats your boat" - after all there are plenty of "handmade" makers to choose from and you can ask all of the questions you feel you have to.



Todd - that's so true. If you use a simple block of wood to guide the saw when cutting fret slots that's a "jig" too. It also brings me back to the origin of the word "manufactured" which comes from the Latin manus factore - made by hand. That always makes me smile.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I make my own necks, with a combination of regular woodworking machinery and hand tools. I enjoy the work, and I wouldn't consider outsourcing. I also welcome CNC machinery and premade parts, jigs and whatnot for sale, with all its accuracy and repeatability and uniformity, because I believe this will in time make me more unique. The way I build, I tweak just about everything just a little with each instrument, and then some days I’m better than others etc, so can never be as accurate as a CNC. All my instruments are different, and there are inaccuracies that wouldn’t be there in a factory instrument, and signs of human touch are present. Yes, this is “workmanship of risk” territory, but that is not my point. Even though we as builders may consider CNC “just another tool” and “we don’t care how parts are made”, there are lots of people who do. They are also willing to pay for that, perhaps romantic notion, that most they own something beautiful and functional that was made mainly with hand guided tools, by a single person.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Can only comment from the perspective of the hobbyist amateur - but for me, the process of doing it from scratch by hand is where I actually feel like a guitar builder, carving out the profile not necessarily using hundreds of measurement, but constantly seeing our it feels in the hand - from a players perspective its easy to see when there is still too much material -(thats the sacry part for us beginners - when you mark it out it always looks way to thin !) and this process is actually really fun.... naturally teh neck joint is daunting for those who like me do not have a strong woodworking background, but adjustments can always be made and that in itself is I guess part of the learning process.

As to the whether CNC v Hand V out source etc makes any difference...well i have to admit that Those customers who say they want a dovetail hand made hand carved - in all likelihood could not tell the difference... A good guitar is a good guitar if the neck is well made well fitted and plays well (how its joined to the body or made (if made to the highest standards) is IMHO irrelevent) I have played 'hand made' geat neck as well as bad, same as CNC'd GREAT necks and bad, played bolt ons that sound amazing and bolt ons that sound poor, same with dovetails.... its in teh quality not the type/process IMHO.

Ah, yes, Where Do You Draw the Line? [BTW, that is supposed to be what you can say in any conversation when you have nothing to contribute but don't want to admit it. Try it sometime!]

I have noticed that everybody who outsources any part of the guitar says that it is just the way they would make it (or finish it) if they were to do it themselves. Of course, one could hire a builder to build a guitar just the way one would make it oneself; is that then a guitar that you made? I know one person who many think is a luthier who actually does that and calls them guitars he "made." I know another guy who also is thought by many to be a guitar maker who buys necks and bodies from Warmoth, spends 2-3 hours bolting them together and mounting the pickups and hardware after giving them a wipe with Danish oil finish, and sells them as guitars he "built." Over the line or under?

One of the most famous and admired luthiers gets fingerboards slotted, radiused, and inlayed from someone else with CNC, and also outsources his finishing, and buys his kerfed liners, and has a lot of the building done under his supervision by apprentices. Over or under the line? Another gets necks and bridges outsourced to CNC production-- but says he still has to clean them up a little by hand, and he worked with the source to get them the way he wants them. Over or under? This may be more common than I knew, as John says. Builders don't exactly advertise it.

Full disclosure: I haven't had a spray booth for the past two years, since I moved the shop from Berkeley, and have outsourced finishing (doing all my own prep and fill!) to Addam Stark. Actually, they are not just the way I would do it myself, although the work is very good--in some respects probably better than mine. I'm looking forward to doing my own again, which should be in a couple of months now that the new shop is built.

Soooo . . . where was I? I think if you don't make the neck from lumber, you didn't build the whole guitar. If you are an amateur, who cares? If you are a professional, I think you are getting on thin ice if you call these guitars you built yourself and sell them as such.

David W: you can't make bridge pins on a wood lathe. Get one of the mini metal lathes. I just did, and look forward to learning how to use it and making pins to my own design.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard:

I second that...well said Howard.

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Dave
Milton, ON

I make all my necks in my shop. I really like carving the neck
I rarely build the same instrument twice(in a row).
For example, I just finished a Stellla 12 string (26-1/2" scale,slotted head,1-15/16" nut,etc.)
You would have to pay a cnc guy to set that one up since it's not "off the shelf".
On my bench are 2 soprano ukes, another Stella 12 string , a Jumbo 12 string(paddle head) and an O size.
All different necks.
I also use different attachment methods(bolt-on and dovetail).

Same reason I don't use bending machines (My whole shop would be fiilled with jigs!)
The forms already take up a tremendous amount of room.

Howard, I totally agree with you.
If you advertise hand made guitars, then your hands should make them. Now a custom built guitar, well that is another matter.

Howard, as usual you have a way of literally cutting through the BS

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

The question of what makes "Hand Made" really needs to be moved to a separate discussion... as it has been the subject of Rock Throwing on both sides since the very beginning of the Industrial Revolution!

Back to the subject at hand...

Personally....

I have made all my own necks so far.. completely from scratch.... Why?
Cost... Pure and simple! I just can't afford to buy a pre-cut neck.

It certainly does take some time, but I don't find it difficult... just time consuming. It's kinda fun to see if you can get it all figured out... Get the curves "Just right" so that it feels good to your hand....

I do totally understand the benefit, though... If you took a pre-cut CNC neck and then modified the neck shape as needed (Or not) for the Musician's hands and playing style... It would be very hard to tell the difference.

Thanks

Howard...you're a true wordsmith! Nice little essay...thanks for the post!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Carving necks is enjoyable, as are all aspects of building guitars. When it becomes bothersome, time consuming or a chore, then I'll switch to building pianos.

Bob

I'd never source my necks out because I enjoy the process of making them. I have a unique
practice that serves both the customer/player and myself as the builder as we work together
to create a guitar that will look the way they want, sound the way they want and, as importantly,
play the way they want.

When I'm fashioning the neck for a custom ordered guitar, I will send it in a semi finished
shape for the player to feel and get analyze as they determine whether or not it will provide
a familiar and comfortable playing experience that will contribute to the building of a great
relationship between them and the guitar.

I've played many and have owned a few beautiful guitars whose necks were a little too
large or a little too small in the various shapes and dimensions that cause to either love or
hate a guitar. Even though they were beautiful sounding and looking, they sat largely unplayed
and in their cases. Every one that I owned ended up being sold to people who were looking
just what they had to offer as far as neck profile goes.

I'll send a neck out to it future owner as many as three times with a diagram of the
profile for them to draw on or write notes on to describe what they would like for me to
change on that shape. Through these visits to the player by the neck, we can come to a
very accurate final neck shape that will provide just what the player is hoping to feel
when he or she picks up their new guitar right from the very first time they open the
case and pick it up.

It's just one of the steps in the custom build process that allows the client or customer
to be an integral part of the design and fine tuning process that can never be offered by
the factories producing guitars under the heavy demands of a high quota driven system.
I believe that these kinds of offerings of service by the small shops and solo luthier shops
all over the world are what have drawn many players away from the production guitars
and into the fun and exciting process of a custom guitar commission.

Many close friendships have been forged between players and builders as the custom
guitar because of the time and effort put in on both sides of the commission equation.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

This reminds me of that Vitamin C argument. Is it a natural product or was it chemically manufactured, because if it isn’t a natural product then I’m not buying. Then when we become enlightened we realize that Vitamin C is the same chemical compound whether it is naturally produced or chemically manufactured. Vitamin C is Vitamin C is Vitamin C.

The same holds true for guitars! As a player I really don’t care if it was made by hand or by machine as long as I enjoy the instrument for what it is. A guitar!

I don’t believe one can tell the difference between a well made handmade neck and one well made by machine. There really is no difference other then knowing how it was made.

I make my own necks and I use CNC necks. Would I tell a customer that the guitar they hold has a machined neck? No, for the same reason I don’t tell them I didn’t make the machine heads. I don’t believe they care and why should they. A neck is a neck is a neck. And I would be deceiving my customers if I said otherwise.

We all start as purist but then reality sets in and we realize there are no difference other then maybe the joy in making it yourself...

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I am working on my first guitar although I have been a cabinetmaker for 20+ years. What I did was purchase a cheap reject martin neck and I am using that as a template to carve the neck. I had a few 36" pieces of 4x4 Mahogany with straight grain so I cut a few up to make some necks. With the plans and the Martin neck to use as a guide I think that will work for me. I don't think I will purchase a prefab neck to but on a guitar that I build. Yes it is time consuming but I think the end result will be rewarding.

[img]I%20think%20if%20you%20don't%20make%20the%20neck%20from%20lumber,%20you%20didn't%20build%20the%20whole%20guitar[/img]

I think you could make this argument about any part of the guitar. I'd like to suggest a system of brownie points wherein you get one point for each part you make...that's obviously the only fair way to handle this!

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

There are two kinds of customers that buy custom guitars. One type is buying a guitar, one type is buying romance. The first type wants the best product and doesn't care how it's made. The second type wants the best story to tell about the product.

Both luthiers and clients all lie somewhere between the two extremes.

If a tool or process is 'out of bounds' for any reason other than it doesn't produce work functionally superior to your current method, then you're limiting the quality of your product. If selling romance as part of your product makes you more money, then this can be a wise decision.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Granting for the purpose of the discussion that players can't tell the difference (I actually believe they can), the question is how much the way it was made matters. To me as builder, it matters a lot. I think it matters a lot to my clients, too. Why don't you ask yours if they care? If they do, and they believe they are getting a hand made neck, you are deceiving them by not telling. The neck is quite different from the tuning machines. For starters those have someone else's name on them; the assumption that you didn't make them is overwhelmingly likely--perhaps 100%. The neck has your name (or none), and if you call it a guitar you built, the assumption about who made the neck very likely is that you did. If your clients really don't care, you will soon find out by asking.

I suspect some good portion of them will begin to wonder why they didn't buy a factory guitar.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Yo, Filippo,

think me gonna quote Greg Nelson here

"A craftsman has to deal with everybody elses demons.
An artist only has to deal with his own."

As such, me gotta agree with both Todd and Howard. Nothing like simple honest disclosure.


ICU
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I am a relative newbie to this craft - working on #4 at the moment.

I don't really have an opinion on the rights and wrongs of buying in vs making the neck yourself ( there are no rights and wrongs in my opinion ), but I have found carving the neck to be one of my favorite parts of building. Starting with an ugly angular piece of wood and uncovering the neck within is a very rewarding process. I built my first guitar on a course, and although we had some pretty good instruction regarding minimum thickness at 1st and 10th fret etc, the instruction that stuck with me the most was to "take a way all the bits that don't look like a guitar neck". I found that a bit daunting at first, but as you take away the bits that obviously don't belong, the shape seems to reveal itself. It also gives me the flexibility to try out different shapes for the heel.

After rough cutting the shape with the bandsaw, I do all shaping with a Nicholson 50 rasp and sandpaper. The rasp can remove material quite quickly, but is fine enough that you can kinda sneak up on the shape. I think the last neck probably took me about 5 hours from rough cut to fully shaped and sanded.

( Edit - I should qualify that by saying that I shape the neck after the headstock is completed, and the fingerboard is glued on - the 5 hours is just for the shaping of the neck itself )

Maybe the novelty will wear off, but for now I really enjoy the neck making process.

Dave

How about finish? Do those who outsource their finishes have some obligation to volunteer this fact as well?

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Full disclosure is always the best policy IMO. My customers are aware of the fact that I use Joe White's finish. I actually highlight Joe's finish on my website. There's no way I could provide a better finish. There's also no way any CNC could provide a better neck than I can carve...and my customers are aware of that as well!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com