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I bought that thing from Stew Mac. Was not happy with my first use. Seems the bass strings were too close together. I guess I do not understand how to use it, even though I watched the videos. I have a new nut in place. So before it goes under the knife, anybody have some insight?

Mike

Mike,
I have always done my own spacing, but then heard good things about the "Rule" and bought it thinking it might save me some time. I found out the same thing as you did. The bass strings are too close together even though it does slightly space their centers farther apart than the treble strings. The problem is that they are not far enough apart. I am sure I that I properly understand the use of the rule, as you likely do too. As a result, I have an unused rule.

Of course, some builders space their centers on equal spaces. So the spacing rule IS and improvement over what they are doing IMHO. But is does not go far enough IMHO. Much improvement can be gained by spacing the bass strings a little farther apart than the rule does.

Welcome to the "I-got-a-tool-I-can't-use" club.

Ed

Mike...I've always found it to set up my string spacing perfectly. Practice on scrap first.

1) Set the outer e and E strings to your liking
2) Find the slots that match up to the e and E
3) Scribe the remaining 4 locations with slots that are at the same level as e and E
4) File all six string slots accordingly.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Mike -

Hmm. While it is a bit tricky, I don't think there's a hidden secret here. Two questions - are you certain that you had the bass and treble side of the template lined up correctly? (and not flip-flopped?) If not that, is your nut width a standard width, e.g. not too narrow?

Don't know what else it might be - I've used it, seemed to work pretty well.

Good luck.

Good post Corky and I was thinking the same things that you were.

It's easy to pick the thing up and forget that it has a bass side and a treble side and when you reverse these two sides you may get what you are describing. I have done this before too but caught it before I started cutting.

The rule is capable of doing a fine job of spacing the strings. Something else that helps me is to use a mechanical pencil that I have additionally sharpened with say 400 grit sand paper so that my lines are as fine as possible. A thick pencil line is asking for error.

I find this tool to work well myself. I can go cross eyed however looking at all those lines and slots. Remember as well that you need to choose either the short lines in a set or the long lines in a set and you cannot mix them up.

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http://www.booneguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Stephen-Boone-guitar-builder/488208541257210

My guess is that Mike is NOT using the tool incorrectly. But I could certainly be wrong. Regardless, Mike came to the conclusion that the tool does not space the bass strings far enough apart. He is certainly correct IMHO. The tool is flawed in that it only goes part way to spacing the strings so that there is nearly equal space between the strings' edges thereby providing nearly equal space for the player's fingers. I say nearly because it is difficult to provide exactly equal space on both sides between the strings edges, but it can be very close to equal space. Again, we are not talking equal space between centers which is not very useful to the player, but we are talking equal space between string edges which is very useful to the player. (Actually an excellent case can be made that the the bass strings should be more greatly spaced between edges than the treble strings. This is very easy to show, but that is the topic that should be another tread to avoid hijacking this thread.)

- The guitar's strings get wider and wider as they progress from treble to bass. I am sure this is known and considered by everyone responding here.

- If the center lines of all the strings are spaced equally apart, then the clearance space between the string edges becomes less and less as you go from treble to bass strings I know this is no surprise to anyone. I believe the Spacing Rule attempted to solve this issue.

- The string Spacing Rule increases the space between string centers as they progress from treble to bass to compensate for the increasing string thickness; and thereby (the goal) provide more space between the string [u]edges[/u]. This is very good. But the Spacing Rule falls well short of proving near equal space between strings' edges.

Therefore, IMHO, the tool is flawed as Mike points out. The tool takes a step in the right direction and is an improvement over equal centers spacing, but it does not provide equal edges spacing. Equal edge spacing provides more benefit to the player IMHO. Why go part way as this tool does when you can go all the way and provide more benefit to the player?

I am surprised that none of the other responses comment on this. Am I crazy? I'm often wrong, but I have thought through this carefully and have been spacing strings for with equal edge spacing for years and experienced the playing benefit.

I hope this is of help to someone.

Ed

I like to use a scribe with the nut rule and scratch a mark into the nut. Then when making the first cut, my .010" razor saw engages the scratch eliminating one potential source of error.

I believe the discussion here was where to, and not how to, cut the string slots. There are different philosophies concerning string spacing. Early on in my building I simply took the dimension from center E to center e, divided by 5 and marked the spacing. I now have the ruler in question and use it to space the strings which, as mentioned above, compensates a bit for string thickness. Then there are those that use equal spacing between the edges of the strings. You simply add up the thickness of the 4 central strings and add half the thicknesses of the two outer strings (E, e) together, subtract from the center-to-center E, e dimension and divide by 5. This is the distance between the edges of the strings. There are musicians that swear by this, saying they can definitely feel the difference. While I don't doubt they can feel a difference, I would wager that after 5 minutes of playing, any one of the three methods of string spacing works because the human hand/brain coordination is so extremely adaptable the fingers land right where they're supposed to. Just my 2 cents.
Craig

I wouldn't entirely disagree with those sentiments. I'm always amazed how some players can switch from playing something like a lute (with it's coursed strings) to a modern classical. All done with apparent ease. The diffrence in feel and string spacing between the two instruments is huge.
Perhaps on a steel string or electric (with their narrow fretboards) the extra space between the Bass strings may make some difference to some players.
I fail to see how that rule will work for a Classical guitar, quite often the plain G string is thicker than the wound A string. My approach, is to go with equal centres and then 'lean' my needle file so that it favours one side. It doesn't quite give equal spacing but it's more than adequate IMO.

I don't have the ruler in question, but wouldn't string gauge be an important factor here? Or does it compensate for that?

Note that the rule has offset slot long and short dash scribed index marks. You must use one or the other for all six string. If you intermingel spacing with short and long index marks the you end up with the problem you have. The spacing must be all six long index or all six short index marks.

Craig,

Yes, you are right that the question was where to put the strings, not how to cut the slots. Where is the only thing I have been addressing.

Yes, the player's ability to adjust his fingers for gradually widening string center spaces is easily done. I do not believe that there is any real issue for the vast majority of players with becoming accustomed (almost immediately comfortable) to graduated string center spacing which is needed to achieve equal edge spacing. Yes both methods of spacing (equal centers and equal edges) work fine with the human hand/brain. This is not an issue of concern to me.

The reason (I think obvious reason) to have equal edge spacing is to reduce accidental muted string mistakes. Muted bass string mistakes are often reduced significantly when a guitar is set up with equal edge spacing between strings in my experience. This is my only driver for setting up guitars with equal edge spacing. (In reality, more space is needed between bass strings edges than treble strings edges because of the increased slant of the fretting fingers on the bass notes requiring more space to clear the adjacent string than compared to the non-slanted fingers on the treble strings.)

Muted bass string mistakes is what is at issue here. The string Spacing Rule helps some here but does not go far enough to achieve equal edge spacing even when the rule is used perfectly correctly.

Ed

To determine string spacing, I just use Steve Senseney's "progressive nut spacing" diagram.
http://www.mimf.com/library/progressive_nut_scale.pdf
For each guitar, I print a copy on cardstock, then cut it diagonally based on the correct location of the "E" strings. Goes in the guitar file if I ever have to make another nut. Dead easy. (Don't need to spend money on another device I can screw up). I suppose you could laminate it if you're using the same setup a lot. Just my $.02

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Dave
Milton, ON

Small thing to consider, the Stewmac rule makes sens to use only on steel string guitars, not on nylon strings. Nylon strings do not have a regular decrease in size from low E to high E. The G string, for example, is wider than the D. In the case of nylon strings, it is more accepted to mesure equal distance from center to center of string. At least that's what most of my customers (who actually care for that matter) think.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Dave I've never seen that "progressive nut spacing" diagram before.
That seems like a great solution! I'll check it out!

Thanks,
Joe

Set the Low and High E's,measure the distance between with dial calipers. Add up the A,D,Gand B strings.Subtract from previous measurement. Divide the result by 5. The answer is the distance between strings to be measured by dial calipers. Am not sure how any one can be accurate without measuring,since I have to measure this is the way to go for me.The old machinist in me can't just mark lines file and trust what I get. Sorry...!

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

I was taught to not use a razor saw although that is what I used to use. Instead we use the nut files because with a little effort and experience you can walk the file in any direction that you need to go to correct any error.

A lot too depends on your method for making a nut. If you make your nuts too high initially and file them down to the strings for final height, what I was taught to do, the early approaches with saw or file are filed off anyway and all that is left is the bottom of the slots not deeper than the respective strings.

The spacing rule can come out again at any point to check to see if you are in the lane(s). It's a great tool and something else that is fun to do with it is to place it on fact*ry guitars that are in your shop for repair. It's amazing to learn that there can be so very much error in something that is produced over and over again.... You would think that they would get it right at some point....

If you like to do it "by the numbers", there are some very handy calculators you can use, like
http://www.guitarrasjaen.com/English%20 ... ulator.htm
(not the one I use as a check, but looks pretty good)

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Dave
Milton, ON

C'mon people! Tom West got it exactly right and it works for ANY six string, no matter what variety of strings, gauges, and other weirdness you encounter. Change the divisor from 5 to (number of strings - 1) and it'll work for oddball 7-, 8-, or whatever number of strings. Set the (digital, dial, or vernier) caliper once, lock it, use it to position the strings one at a time, mark and cut. Game, set, nicely matching spacing every time. No added tools, no relying on the computer or someone's Excel file, and you don't even have to get up off your stool. Sheesh.

Rick, of course Toms method works. I've done it myself. It's also possible to screw up the math, which is why we're discussing alternatives. If you're not interested in alternatives, that's your decision. But please have the courtesy not to imply that everyone who doesn't do it your way is stupid. Some of us think looking for ways to reduce the possibilities of screw up is a good thing.

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Dave
Milton, ON

Thanks for all the tips and replies. Had no idea this would generate so much interest!

Mike

That rule rules. Actually that was Kevin Ryan's creation. It works flawlessly if you use it right. If you need help using it please give me a call and I'll be glad to help. Unfortunately I don't have the time for long posts or tutorials. (specially at the speed I type...)

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com