Official Luthiers Forum!

Joe, I agree with all of the above opinions and will add that if you are too soft with this guy, you will just have to deal with the next unethical jerk that comes along. AND he will come along! A big part of this experience/lesson is in how you handle the situation and place yourself in it. If you are soft and overly reasonable you will keep pulling in hard and unreasonable clients. If you keep proper boundaries in place and are proffessional about it you will pull in people that are more respectful of them and therefore you.

I work with and have to negotiate with these kind of people all the time. One thing I notice that they do as a matter of course is to put out in a very strong way what the rules of the game are (their made up rules of course!) It will always be in their favor. It is imperative that you push back respectfully and proffessionally or you will end up doing your business according to the rules of others that were custom made to leave them on top of you.

If you already told him that you will inspect, repair and refund, then that's the main problem I see since you haven't even seen the guitar yet. If it's an easy repair, Great. However if there has been a lot of damage, but if you simply told him to send it back so you can inspect it (but in your mind you're thinking you will inspect, repair and refund) then you still have the option to tell him (based on the damage of course) that too much damage has been done to justify a repair. That he should have come to you beforehand to have a pickup installed and then come up with your own solution to help him out if you choose.

Perhaps you could sit down with him and go over the damaged guitar and explain to him that you want to help him but that you're going to reuse whatever you can on the original guitar for the new guitar and have to charge him for the materials that you need to replace. Then discuss each part with him explaining how you can reuse it or how you can't so he has an idea of what he will be responsible for.

Good luck. I wish you the best.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

This guy should be paying for you to even look at the guitar in hopes of fixing it. If I bought a car and modified it with after market parts then I would void the warrenty. If I bought a Martin and tried to do what this guy did, do you think Martin would even entertain the idea of fixing the guitar for free or giving me a refund?

I would tell him you'll look at it and go from there. I would tell him any modifications he did to the guitar were his decision and you can not be held liable for them. Tell him you can try to fix it and then let him know what your hourly rate is. Based upon what I have read giving this guy this money back and taking a damaged guitar should never be an option.

Yes, I have been trying to withhold an opinion, but I agree that this customer deserves no sympathy. Yet, I see from the comments that there are a lot of peole more generous than I, and also more experienced in business image.

hey everyone.

i got the guitar back yesterday. For starters he did not even insure the guitar to its full value......but it arrived safe.....so im allready annoyed before i open the package..........the first thing i do is place the guitar up against a wall and look fo symetry problems.......and nothing catches my eyes at all.............the next thing i notice is the saddle slot has been chewed up by a drill bit trying to elongate the slot for an LR baggs i mix ust............he did not want me to install the pick up as he wanted to keep the cost down and he is a self confessed guitar tech........he is also a very careless player but also a good one but the bindings and headstock a chipped and dented.........the guitar sounds and plays great......i called him to ask why his estimation on the mod damage was underestimated and i got some angry words and a warning of what would happen if i dont sort this out..........so the guitar has been sent back to him and he will get no refund.........a complete nightmare in all..........but lessons have been learned..........thanks to you all for your advice

joe

Joe,

I really hate ou had to endure this. Unfortunately, you can't please everyone.....cause some folks are unpleaseable. It's like an ebay seller that has sold hundreds of items and has a 99.9 rating.......some idiot out there enjoys stirring up trouble.

I'm sure your reputation stands on it's own so try not to let this get to you. From my perspective, you've went out of your way to please this guy. contract or no contract, any resonable person doesn't expect to take a knife or chisel or drill to a produt and then be able to return it. I think the last thing you want is to waste your time building another guitar for him as the odds are slim he would be satisfied no matter what you do.

Sounds like the right decision.

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Hey, a suggestion for you.

Take pictures to document the damage before you return the guitar. Make sure the lighting and focus are right then take a bunch from all angles. It may protect you......and per chance anyone else questions you on this, you can dig up the pictures and show them exactly what this dude did to the guitar before trying to return it. Might as well do what you can to protect your reputation.

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Brave decision!

Maybe folks around here can keep an eye open for complaint threads or bad reviews about Joe Kelly Guitars on the guitar player websites they visit. If he gives you a warning I can imagine that he wants to go public and it would be good if you could write a rebuttal, or post pictures of the damage he has done to the instrument.

Good luck, Christian

I like the idea of taking the photos. It doesn't hurt to cover your butt. I wouldn't worry about his warning, he is trying to use scare tactics. Ignore him, he will go away. He screwed it up, it's his fault not yours. So let him live with it.

Great move on your part I think.

Best of luck. You don't deserve this kind of problem on your hands.

I would as recommended, take plenty of pictures. Might even take some pictures of you packaging it back up as well.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

Hi Joe,
Good for you -- you did the both the honorable and smart thing. If you would be so kind, could you please email me this guy's full name to info@fayguitars.com. I don't recommend putting his name out there for all to see but there are some of us who definitely wouldn't want to be building this guy a guitar.

Thanks,
Simon

If anyone else complains about your guitars not being symetrical tell them those off measurements are intentional and thats why your guitar sounds as great as they do. ..mike

Wow, it is just amazing the clout some people have. Sounds like a good decision you made, I hope this guy gets off your case!

Thank god. He needs to learn to deal with his mistakes.

I have followed this thread and am amazed at your patience with this guy. I think that you should publish his name so others won't get sucked in by his BS. He needs to know you can harm his reputation as much as he can yours if others know the scam he was trying to pull off.

Fred

_________________
Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

It is assumed in any type of market that modificatons void any warranty. If your friend modified the guitar in any way, he has no leg to stand on. If not, you probably should make it right for him. Without a written contract, he has you by the short hairs. Let this be a learning expierence. From now on, make them sign a contract. Intonation, setup, and whatever else you want to include in your warranty is the way to go. But symetry should never be an issue on a custom build. There are so many variables with wood, that you can never guaranty that something will be plumb and straight after it is glued up. I have seen many guitars that were off center, but the bridge was perfectly aligned with the neck, and the scale length was right on. If it plays well, then you did your job.
That is ridiculus for him to complain about. Especially when you gave him a good price. But please do not let this discourage you. There will always be nuckleheads like him to deal with. By the way, what does that price compute to in U.S Dollars?

Joe,
I missed your last post when I posted my remarks. Good for you. Don't let this guy bully you. When he did the mod, he voided his warranty. End of story. I would let the other luthiers in your part of the world know about this guy. He has some issues about ethics. If he post's any bad blogs about you, then you should return the favor. It's a shame that people have to act like that. If you have been building for awhile, your work should speak for itself. Most people can see through people like him. Good luck in the future.

Being a very long time builder,I know that this type idiot really makes the guitar building business irksome. I've had my problems too,like the time a regular customer(bought 5 guitars 1 year from me),brought back a guitar with the lacquer bubbled on the neck. This was in rural North Carolina,where I lived for 6 years. I knew perfectly well that he leaned the guitar up against a wood stove or a radiator. He insisted he didn't. I had to refinish the neck free to keep him happy,as he had bought so many guitars,and was otherwise a nice guy to deal with. What can you do? Then,there is the stupid superstition you have to deal with about wood,etc.. My pet peeve was the guy who insisted that a gold plated tone ring made a banjo sound better. Yea,3 molecules thick of gold makes all the difference!

Your customer sounds like a read ass,though.You did the right thing sending the damaged guitar back to him. Let him squawk.

Yeah! You sent him the guitar back. I was rooting for you to not back down. He sounds insecure about his own abilities.

Sometimes self styled "guitar techs" can be a lot of bother. There's a guy around where I live who is a player, but he does repair work cheap. He advertises he will do fret jobs for 45.00 dollars and then adds: "The reason I can do it for less money than professionals is because I don't crown the frets. You don't need to crown the frets it's a waste of money and the guitar will play fine with out it. "

Riiiiiiight.
Your guy is probably a crazy like that guy in my area. Tell you what, I'd be hopping mad if someone botched a modification on one of my guitars because he wanted to do it himself and pay me less money. I'd be real mad and I'd fire that customer until they figured out what they'd done and how disrespectful they had behaved.

It's a good thing to fire a customer once in a while. You should not be afraid to do it if the person is really out of line.

I am of the opinion that no matter what you do it will never be good enough. This individual will give negative comments about you even if you made him a perfect one now and gave it to him free . This type of person is a no win situation. Have been there In my "sales Business" My approach anymore is to kindly tell them to take there business elsewhere . They got what they paid for , it wasnt sight unseen . If they are capable of doing better , why come to me in first place .

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Have to say i find this really sad. From a custmomers perspective, the best way to deal with these issues is to be honest and talk these problems through with the builder. If spending not insignificant amounts of cash for a custum build, you need to have a strong relationship built on trust and mutual respect. I just dont understand this guy's attitude. Had it been me who had messed up a PU install, or as in the case above left it against the stove, why not own up? Everyone does crazy things now and again and if you want the help of the builder to put it right, at a fair price, why not be honest and truthful about it - I would guess that if the guy had called and said
' er... not sure how to say this but, I er made a bit of a *(^* up trying add a pick up and have kinda caused a bit of damage to the brace....er anything you can do to help fix it? Its such a sweet guitar and as you know I aint made of money so what could you do to help me out...?' most builders would be as reasonable as possible in trying to help...afterall aftercare support is just as important as the initial sale, and then both parties benefit - the guy because he gets his instrument put right at a reasonable price point and the builder because his rep is enhanced through aftersales service... win win situation.... Just dont get these dumb (*&(*&^ who seem to lack any self awareness or honesty.