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http://www.luthiersupply.com/fretinlaytradpage.html

I am looking at the set at the very bottom of the page. Stunning stuff. But how do you get that inlaid?

My first idea would be to press the pieces into something like clay (there is probably a better material that doesn't shrink during the drying process). You can then use a "Pantograph"

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22878

But I guess some of the inlay artists around here can do it freehand as well

Christian

Use the same machine that cut it out?

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Into ebony or something else? I've done several of Andy's fancy sets like this into ebony, but I'm not good enough to do it in anything else. In ebony, it will not be a problem. Here is the way I do these: Andy sends these just like you see them. They are glued to a piece of cardboard. To maintain the integrity of the shapes I put a piece of clear duct tape over each whole section and make sure it is well stuck to the top of the whole inlay. Soak them in warm water for a few minutes to get them to release from the cardboard. Pat dry on paper towels. Then I cut the tape away from the edges as close as I can get (around the perimeter). You now have the inlay free but held together with the tape. Mark around the inlay on the FB and inlay the whole piece as one unit, tape side up. I use epoxy with ebony dust in the cavity, place the inlay, press it down flush with the FB and clamp in place. When all is dry you can pull the tape off and sand flush. You probably will need to fill a few pin holes ( I use more ebony dust and CA). This has worked well for me.

When you inlay the whole section, the black ebony oozes between the pieces and fills it nicely. Once finished and FB oil is applied, it is next to invisible. Also, I use a 16" radius FB and cut the cavities with a flat bottom, so some of the surface pearl may get sanded a little, but I haven't really had a problem. If your radius is greater, though, you need to be careful not to sand away all the pretty stuff.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I have done 2 with this inlay, I used a dot of HHG on each piece and attached it in position on my FB blank. Carefully scribed the out line with a #7 exacto blade. I then came back with a micromarker .25mm tip with red ink and carefully traced the pieces again just to give a clear visual reference. I then tool a small iron and heated the shell and removed it. I found that having a strip of wood with cheap carpet tape on it handy to place the individual pieces on after removing them is a god send to avoid getting them out of order or dropping them. Then with my Foredom rotary tool, SM Foredom hand piece, home made Lexan inlay base and 1/32, 1/16" and 1/8" down cut bits carefully routed out the channels needed. It is a lot of work. If I remember correctly I spent about an hour placing, attaching and scribing the pieces to the FB blank and 4 hours carefully routing the channels.

I guess I should add if you trace with a micromarker as I mention you channel up to the line not into or on the line. Even with my jewler's loop my eyes have a hard time focusing solely on a scribed cut line. The micromarker just helps define the scribed line and helps relive the eye strain. I would love to find micro markers in white but the smallest white maker I can find is .7mm and that is too large. .25mm is ideal

Lots of great tips in the posts here. Thanks, folks.

Michael-
Do you have a link/source for the micromarkers? (I can't even seem to find white pencils any more, so even a 0.7mm white marker would be useful.)

Thanks
John

Yep let me find it real qick and I will post back

here you go John. this is direct page t the pin I use

http://www.shopatron.com/products/productdetail/part_number=EOK01-19/294.0?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleshopping

Thanks, Michael.
Very useful.
John
(dating myself - I finally ran out of my stock of white 'blueprint marking' pencils here a few years ago!)

You are like me and still remember ammonia fume blue printing

I have used "Friendly Plastic” (thermally moldable plastic polymer beads) in the past to make relief molds of inlays to use on a pantograph. But releasing the shell after the plastic has cooled is an issue. Inlays like this have many very fragile pieces and the odds are not good at getting them out without damage. On fragile inlay if you are not having the shell and channels cut by CNC then it is far safer to scribe and hand channel than to attempt to make relief molds to follow with a pantograph.

another method is to rub chalk into the scribed lines of the piece outlines on the FB. Anything other than ebony or afr blkwood is pretty much impossible for us mere earthlings with something that complex - you need one of those other world beings like Laskin or Robinson to do it by hand ... into maple ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Wow... lots of great replies! As usual, MDP has all the great tools & markers. I thought about the pantograph, but Mike confirmed my fear about the Friendly Plastic and detail work. But...

How about this. Instead of embedding the shell in the FP, lay the shell on a flat surface and work the FP around it so it sort of encases it from the edges. This "template" will be as thin as the shell. Theoretically, one could build several layers.

Should be easier to remove shell from that.

Mike

Possible but in truth there are so many thin arm like appendages and small individual pieces I suspect you would end up putting more work and time into making the mold than scribing and routing combined.

Really accurately hand routing is not hard. You just take your time, have and air supply that keeps the dust away. Rout the perimeter and small areas of all pieces first with a 1/32" bit and remove the excess with 1/16 or 1/8' bits. Good lighting, good jewelers loop and determination to stay with in the scribed lines and you got it made

Haven't done anything with quite so many pieces as those.

I glue the pieces to common printer paper with Titebond, then glue the paper lightly to the FB. Score, then after re-wetting, lift off the pieces off with a fine X-acto blade. Chalk the scoring, then go slowly with a Dremel.

My first inlay was a sort of tree of life, my own design, on a banjo neck. I had much more time than money for a powertool, so I routed the ebony FB by hand with a tiny chisel made from a ground-down jewelers file. Looked pretty good, but it was awhile before my eyes got un-crossed.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I usually start by painting the area first with white artists acrylic, then tack the inlay & trace with an exacto. Makes it much easier to see, & you'll sand off with final sanding later.

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Dave
Milton, ON

For those familiar with Andy's product, are those sets "machine" carved or hand carved? I am wondering how much variance is in each set.

Mike

They are all hand carved.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Yep they are hand "cut" by some really great shell cutters in Viet Nam. Heck they don't even use modern machine fabricated saw blades. They make their own blades from scrap tool steel. They make the product by hand all the way from the raw harvested shell to finished product.

You can do all of the above mentioned methods and surely they will work, but the easiest way is to get a good copy of the original, make copies for yourself, then literally glue the paper copy down exactly into position, and carefully route the pattern out from inside the copy. You get an exact layout, and an exact rout line, as long as the pearl was cut exact to the pattern to start.

Make sure there is glue fully and cleanly under the paper (some use 3M spray tack glue, I prefer model airplane cement) and make sure you use good paper and have sharp bits. You don't want the paper coming up during routing, but if it does, take it all off, and start over with the other copy. Mark off you line up position points in advance.

Start outside in, and only do the very outer edges, then you can take the paper off and do the insides easier. Don't push the router forward through the pattern, or drag it. Hop and pop it along like a sewing needle, making little holes. Then you will have a great outline.

Use the smallest bits you have to start.

The millionth Martin was done this way, and Larry is pretty much only doing things this way anymore for routing. I do it sometimes, but other times I like scribing. Sometimes I just trace with pencil, it works fine too. For something this fine with all those pieces, I would do the paper thing. Gluing down the pieces will get messy, and they will break if not very carefully removed. best to not have to scribe them either, they could break during scribing. This method removes all of those issues.

Oh- yes it takes a lot of time.
Ask Andy for a copy, if he rather not give it away, then it's a lot more work!


Craig Lavin

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www.handcraftinlay.com

Cooooooooool it’s Craig chiming in

I love this approach but I have one question. Are you are regarding to Xerox copies? IF so just a warning to someone trying this; be sure to check you copy against the actual piece and or pieces. Because the Xerox process induces both heat and roller tension into the paper which can cause slightly out of scale copies as the paper is printed then when the paper cools the issue is compounded. Plus the machine can be out of adjustment to boot.

That said the smaller the piece the lest likely this is to be a problem but if you try to make a single copy of say full vine or 8”-11” of a full fine it can cause some very noticeable scaling issues.

We have this issue all the time with people wanting to use the OLF plans as templates. You always need to verify as the paper will stretch and shrink from both the printing process as well as the atmospheric environmental changes it sees.

I would think a heaver paper like a 25# bond paper would give the best resualts Typical Xerox paper is 18# bond.

Mike your correct, that's a good point I forgot to mention.

Most of us full time guys have out own copiers, etc.. so we don't drive all over to make copies.
Changing the %size of the copy is no big deal, but yes, check the final with a few actual pieces to make sure it's to scale, or a tad (1-2%) larger. In ebony it's not an issue, in something like maple it is, honestly in maple I would prefer to scribe over this, but that's just me.
Craig

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www.handcraftinlay.com

All I can say is get the 7 hours of instruction from the Robinson DVDs and then ask questions if not answered in them.
It's just about all there. Just some new tricks and tools since 98 but you'll pick that up from others.