Official Luthiers Forum!

Seems like a pretty good consensus of opinion. I agree.

Examine the guitar.
Don't get caught up in the emotional game, don't let him play you.
Close this down.
Don't build another guitar, you can't guarantee that it will be better enough to satisfy him.

How did this whole idea of money back guarantees get started anyway?! I can see it on production building, but not on custom work. This is something that I can't buy into and won't offer. Clients commission me based upon prior work and reputation, something that I have worked very hard for. They should already have an idea of what to expect. If my work is not up to my own standards it should be evident a the time of sale, not a week or two later.

Sorry, but I feel strongly about this.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

well i must say that i feel much better for sharing this problem on here.........all the advice is really pricless and i thank all of you.........

it turns out that he has modified it..........he tried to fit a pick up to it and caused some damage......he blames my unorthodox brace placement for the damage........can you believe this guy.........

so the guitar is on its way back to me and i will inspect and repair.......and refund him.........i wont make him another .....he wants me to but i wont...........

this has actually almost halted workshop production for three days........its been a real lesson.........terms and conditions are being drawn up asap..........another problem is after he said he loved it i used the money to buy coco back and side stock....now i have a cash flow problem.....but i need this monkey of my back

many thanks to you all for your help.........joe

You're being WAY more than generous, to this ***hole, IMO. HE screwed it up, and wants YOU to eat it? And this is causing YOU financial difficulties?

You may want to reconsider.

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https://soundcloud.com/jeffreylsuits/he ... -runnin-13

I agree!!!!!!! The only way I would return his money is after sell of the instrument. Damage cause by trying to install a pick up system is on him. If he wants it repaired then he pays for the repair. If he wants a new build then work with him and plan for a specific pickup system to be installed during construction. If possible move him to the front of your schedule. Offer him a set amount trade in on the damaged guitar applied only towards the new build. Try to make the client happy but do not take the fall just to avoid his undeserved deformation to your reputation. If we continue to say “well Ok here is your money back in cases where the client is odiously at fault like this then we will continue to be taken advantage of. It is one thing if the guitar was not damaged this is entirely different. Yes it will be a headache dealing with him on this. But if you keep your head while standing your ground all could work out well for both parties. If he will not be willing to work as I just described then the guitar is his. Don’t take the hit. You do not deserve it.

time will tell Jeffrey...........i will see what damage he has done.........i may change my mind..........

joe

yes Michael i have managed to stay polite with the guy.........just.........so all options are open.........this side of the business is areal test...

joe

I believe you have a customer problem here and not a guitar issue. The lack of a contract complicates matters. However, in all fairness the customer should have a right to return a good instrument with penalty. The penalty is yours to decide and should be determined fairly and unemotionally. Decide the penalty before you see the instrument.

IMO a return should be penalized with cost of material plus 25% labour cost plus any incurred costs due to damages. The customer should be returned costs of materials if the instrument were sold at or above the original price within a 1 year period.

There is a fair bit of knowledge from both the experienced and amateur builder on this thread and you are now armed with a contract and you still have the same customer wanting another instrument. Only this time you know your customer very well. This should be a win-win situation for both of you.

Best regards,

P.S. One word of advice; don’t give your customers motives. Just listen and do what is fair to keep them.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

He has a customer problem, that's for sure. That customer has absolutely no right to return the Guitar - it's modified, it's slightly damaged. Odd finish scuff is acceptable. anything much more and it's hardly worth it

i have been guilty for so long of giving my customers to much.........just to make the sale so to speak.......i must admit though its all heading in the right direction........my skills are getting better and better and my guitars are getting out there.......but my customer skills are getting worse......lol.......i just seem to cave in and give them way too much for thier money...........and i end up resenting the build and the customer........simply because i want the sale....

joe

Keep in the back of your mind "you don't build the customer you build the guitar"

I feel for you on this one but really I disagree with making you mind up on what you are going to do prior to seeing the damage. See the guitar. figure out a fair compromise make but don't be affraid to allow the client to walk if he finds that un-acceptable. I am all for making the client happy. I am all for finding a way to repair this particular client/ builder relationship. But to do that should not cost you. You built a guitar. he inspected it, was pleased with it and paid for it. if at a reasonable time frame he had found a construction flaw or playability flaw the he should give you the opportunity to make it right on that instrument. if not possible then a refund of some type would be appropriate. How ever the moment he began to alter the guitar he lost that privilege.

Now you have the opportunity to go the extra mile to make a client happy. This is a great opportunity but that opportunity should not cost your company nor a dime more than what you de reasonable to create a satisfied customer.

If I were in your shoes and if the client was willing to be reasonable with me I would offer 100% material cost + 10% labor cost off of a new build new build and in return I keep the damaged guitar. That is basically offering $800 to the client for a damaged guitar. Outside of that if the client did not accept those terms; all I would offer is to repair and resale the guitar with the client to receive the full fund of a resale at the time of resale. Anything outside of this let him walk.

Be open minded and fair with him but realize this is his error not yours.

A "right to return" a factory instrument purchased at a guitar retailer? Well, yes, maybe a completely brand-spanking new factory guitar that could be hung back up on the wall - and that was purchased within a few days ago, at a retailer. But a custom, hand-built instrument, built as a long-scale designed for and built with heavy gauge strings? I disagree that the customer has a "right to return a good instrument" (custom), but when you throw the complication of a specialty instrument that has a limited market, I have to triple disagree that the customer has any right to return it. Then add the fact that the customer damaged the instrument in an attempted modification...

Joe Kelly, you're not being "nice", you're being a doormat if you give him back his money. If you also agree to build him another instrument, well, be sure to locate your snow shovel, your massage cream, and be prepared to buy his wife a larger bra size.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

So he has tried to install a pickup, somehow damaged the guitar, and you are going to take it back and refund? What is wrong with you?
As in I buy a car, smash it in a wall and then ask a refund on the wreck because I thought it works like a tank?

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Build log

I think a lot of us have had this type of problem. It goes with the territory if you are dealing direct with a problem customer, are a newer builder and as such, have a bit of a fragile reputation. I solved it by developing a good relationship with a highly thought of acoustic guitar store with a 50 year history. I sell off the wall there, and run any commissions through the owner. He collects the down payment, the final payment, and deals with issues after delivery such as you have had. As a well established store with an excellent reputation they can be appropriately hard nosed without risking that reputation. So far so good. It's been more than worth the commission I pay them and just having my stuff on their wall and website has given me great exposure and a small dose of credibility. Just a thought. I'd still buy it back just to get rid of the guy but at a price appropriate with the damage done. I'd stay courteous, calm, but firm. You'll never win a pissing match with a guy like this if you get angry and self righteous. Good luck.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Many (most) reputable builders have a 2 week "cooling off period", after which the deal is done. Damage, abuse, neglect, etc void even this.

If for some reason you feel obligated to service this individual the maximum I would offer is to re-sell and refund only when the instrument sells and less cost of repairs and 10-20% as handling/commission fee.

Needless to say I would never do repeat business with this individual.

Good luck,

-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

If he damaged it you have every right to refuse a return. However, You might want to maintain a reputation as a luthier that is willing to cooperate with the customer. What I would do it take the guitar back and return his money.
I would then say in my most polite voice; "I'm sorry that you are disappointed with the guitar but it is the best that I can do. The level of asymmetry is consistent with a free-form instrument and, if I built you another one, it is likely to have similar issues. Perhaps you will have better luck with a different luthier."

I must applaud all of you that would take an instrument back with damage be it a small thing or a major thing and refund the money all for the sake of having a reputation of overly fair trade practice. I guess I am to stubborn to except eating crow I did not cook.

That said my grandpa taught me that there is three faces to a man’s reputation, but there are only two you have to worry about. The one in the mirror when you shave each morning and the one that sleeps next to you at night.

I said back at the start of this thread that I suspected this guy need a quick cash influx the longer this goes on the more I believe that is still the case.

What good is your reputation as a guitar builder if to maintain it you empty your pocket?

In my opinion if the guy will not work reasonably with you. Let him take he fall see if he has the gall to raise a stink. I doubt seriously he does.

He obviously went to a less than expert luthier if the guitar was damaged by a pick-up install. He should be after that individual rather than you for the costs.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

I think this would be the perfect way to handle it. Well said Mike.

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

If He has drilled through an X Brace, you are not going to be able to fix it as new so it is unsalable, and you should not have to wear that

Joe,

I do a bit of negotiation in my day job and people have come close to it but what you really need to do is find out what the heck happened. He loved it, now he hates it and wants to turn it in. Maybe it's the mod, maybe he needs cash. We don't know. You have to ask him and really dig and see what it is that he's REALLY after. Ask him why it was o.k. one day and not the next. Ask him if he'd re-mix a recording for someone two weeks after they paid him for it for gratis and re-record it. Get him in your shoes. Once you guys are seeing eye to eye you can come to an agreement that works for both of you but not before. They say to always have a BATNA (idiotic acronym they use at work) which is the Best Alternative to No Agreement. i.e. if you can't see eye to eye, what do you do? You could say, tough luck, I'll tell every luthier how you do business or whatever. Plan it out and possibly let him know. Don't let him walk all over you though.

Ideally, you'll get him back on your side and you'll solve the problem without any returns. Perhaps you can instal the pickup at a reduced rate or something like that.

Good luck!

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Umm....am I missing something here.?

Im not a luthier but I'am in business. If a customer tinkered with and then messed up a product that he bought from me and then tried to get ME....! to take it back using some spurious reason why he did'nt want it anymore, he would very soon find he did'nt have a leg to stand on. Can you imagine trying to do this with GC or any other trader for that matter.

If your a good enough craftsman, have built up a solid, happy customer base then why waste precious time and resources with this guy, whoever he is....

Tell him "sorry bro".. I can't take the guitar back, you have voided the warranty and ruined the instrument by messing with it. Whoever he is you don't need him.....think of all your other customers who are more than happy....thats what is important.

I think you have a classic case of ECS (Embarrassed Customer Syndrome) - The guy love the guitar - so much so he was playing so often and needed a pick up installed rapidly, so either tried it himself of had a local try teh mod, without checking bracing positiosn... so what he does is makes up some rubbish about there being someting wrong because hes to embarrassed to admit hes ruined an bloody good instrument - its why he wants YOU to build him another.

Therefore, my guess is common ground CAN be reached. You just need to handle the discussion in such a way that he feels comfortable about admiting his mistake and knows that you will do all you can to find a solution. Its a case of almost saying - 'no sweat, happens all the time, its why I build and you guys play! ' but please promise me in future, that any mod or change you need, give me a call and I can advise on the best way to go about it, because surely you can see that it can lead to very expensive and dmaging mistakes'

I think if it was me i can well imagine how I would feel, have a great instrument, love it, then try and make a simple mod that ruins it...ARHHHRARHH - painful lesson and very embarrassing - so I really think if you can make him feel that you understand his predicament, avoid embarrassing him, and discuss a workable solution I think it will work out. He may just wat reassurance that you could fix the problem and restore the guitar he loved? (At an agreed price naturally)

Joe, I would not take the guitar back and give him a refund. Since he tried to modify it, he lost all rights to return it. You break it. You bought it. We have all heard that saying. The only obligation you have to this individual is to offer to repair the guitar, but at your standard rate for repairs, and that is it. Business is a two way street, you can inform all luthiers around you about this guy's way of doing business. I guarantee that none of them will jump for his business.
As far as him saying the guitar is built out of whack, for one I would never say it is hand built, what do you expect? I would have said this is my design, and that is why they sound so good.

This fellow needs to understand that there is a cost to his tinkering!

Consider the fellow who walks in to a watch repairman's shop with a handkerchief full of teeny tiny watch parts and a sad look on his face... Sure, the repairman can get it back together.... but that fellow will pay dearly for this!

You don't have to be ugly as some here have suggested... but you do need to Charge him some fair value for repairing the damage he caused..... How you decide to do that is up to you.

One idea may be to evaluate for repairs and proper installation of a pickup... Put your mirror in there and show the owner "Look, here... you have drilled a hole through key structural parts... This is why it doesn't play correctly any more.... This is very difficult to fix now... but I believe I can get her going again!" Quote this as a Repair to the Owner.... It may turn out that the fellow really did like the guitar until his tinkering ruined it... and he may want it back once it is back together and working to it's former glory!

Another option if you decide to take the instrument back... Credit the owner the original price less the cost of all repairs needed to return it to as-new salable condition...

This way, there is a cost associated with his tinkering.... Hopefully he will remember this next time he picks up the drill!

Remember the old Repairman's sign:

Costs:
$20.00/hr if I repair it
$40.00/hr if you help
$80.00/hr if you already tried to repair it

Thanks

John

I'll add to John's list, $1000/hr if you want to watch.

I agree with those who say you don't need/want to get into an argument with this player, but you need to stand your ground or that will be part of your reputation also.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com