Official Luthiers Forum!

I would just get your guitar back and move on. This guy is just going to bled you dry. I would never do business with him again either.
Sorry this has happened to you but these things happen to most all self employed people at some point. At least there are a lot of folks here that understand how you feel. It sucks but I would cut my loses and move on.
Link

P.S. BTW-FWIW a verbal agreement can be either oral or written as verbal simply means with words. What most folks mean oral when they say verbal.
For example this post is verbal but not oral.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Sorry to hear this, sounds like a trouble maker.

-for my own builds I accept about 1mm of left/right play for the outline because I don't like forcing the sides in the mold to the max. If they sit in reasonably close with not much stress I'm very happy. 2mm is a bit high, might be well visible, but if he really cared about this kind of thing he should have checked it upon receipt.

-0.5mm off center for the bridge is more than OK. Tell him I said he is nuts.


I have a customer who is nuts about even the slightest detail. He is going to inspect all joints with a magnifier to check for filled gaps. But we discussed this in advance - big difference.

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Build log

Joe,

This is your call as you have dealt with this customer before, but ask yourself if you REALLY want the sort of customers that his "reputation" would bring you. Sounds to me that if you build him another guitar then he is definitely holding you to randsom. If he is slagging your reputation publicly then you have legal means of protection. I don't know your financial circumstances but I'd be inclined to tell him that he can have his money back IF the guitar is returned in the condition you supplied it and wish him luck in finding another as good for the price. I suspect you will find another buyer for it.

But then that's just me and I don't rely on guitar sales to feed me - I won't make an instrument for just anyone that has the money, they have to prove to me first that they deserve one and if the sound and playability aren't enough to distract them from an arbitrary definition of aesthetics and perceived "perfection" then they don't really deserve one. Ater all each instrument has a large part of my "soul" in there.

Don't despair or brood just think of all the other happy customers that your 10 years of building has created.

Nil bastardi carbarundum and all that

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Joe,
You've been given great advice and support above. I hope that is helping ease your mind a little. I'm an amateur builder, so have no experience selling my guitars but a ten-year run with no troubles is remarkable in any business. You are obviously exceptionally talented and a good businessman. Remind yourself of that and don't let this problem discourage you.

If I were a professional builder, I would take the guitar back--if it was in salable condition and had not been modified. If he then wanted me to make another guitar I would tell him I would gladly add him to the end of my waiting list. How long would his wait be? Well, I couldn't really say. ;-)

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George :-)

I'd stay well clear. I certainly would not make another for this guy. 0.5 mm off centre really is so small that it's just plain negligible. You could spend countless hours trying to make a near perfect guitar and for what reason? £800?
Forget it.

Alex,

They obviously enjoy doing that so I'd add a price premium for providing this service

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave, yes, and I guess I enjoy the challenge too. Besides, he is my friend. He has very high standards, if I can't fill in, nobody is upset. I'm not doing business with strangers off the street atm, for several reasons. I have another money making job, and I get really attached to my "wooden babies". Parting them feels better when it's for a friend. Also a funny situation like the one discussed here is far less likely to occur, I am hoping.

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Build log

We now have had 2 people say that 2mm out of symmetry is a lot or at least noticeable. Man! Take a good look at a scale! That is.078” a tad over 1/16” or approximately the width of 2 credit cards. The only way one could know a body is 2mm out of symmetry is to take really painstakingly accurate measurements.. If anyone here can testify to building their bodies to insure less than 2mm out of symmetry I have to bow in amazement. Even with a full height mold and spreaders and the spreader being forced to a dead flush fir. Most molds probably have half of that much play in the latch mechanism.

Friend or not; get the guitar and client in your shop before you even worry you self over this. Reputation is one thing and can be easily damaged this is true. But at the same time there is right and there is wrong and sometimes there are things in between. Without a doubt the only way to resolve this is to know for sure what is going on with the guitar, and client. I would not even deal with this by email any more than to say bring it in and lets take a look at the guitar and discus what we need t do abut it.

Before I committed to build this guy another guitar, I would have him write up specs that if met, he will accept. You can then decide if you can or want to meet the spec. Otherwise, you may build another guitar and be right back in the same boat......and with time and material tied up in two guitars built to his spec.......which you are now responsible for selling. Whatever you do, don't agree to anything that could make this turn out worse for you.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I'd check and make sure his ears and eyebrows are level (does he have any teeth missing ??) ....and then tell him that perfect guitars cost ten times as much, with no timelimit on delivery date .. so how about a down payment ???

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Hi Joe

I am strichtly amateur and relatively new so cant add any wise words like the pros, but I guess I am usually more of a customer than a builder so will chip in my two penneth as a paying customer.... I dont know about others but as a player its very easy to fall in love with an instrument and two weeks later fall in love with another... and then another - its not that you come up against something 'better' but its usually that you come up against something you have not tried before!

Its the big dilemma, because what it usually means is that you end up selling guitars after short periods of ownership knowing in your heart of hearts that you will regret it later...like a lost love.

I would not be surprised if your customer does love the guitar, as for most musicians, if you close your eyes, and listen to to wondeful tone, what the thing looks like is frankly secondary... and had jsut seen something else..

If I had fallen for another I would just take it on the chin and start saving, or I might ask for a swap making it clear that I would wait until the old one was sold... not really sure why he is worried about asymetry - thats pretty normal as the others have said on hand builds so seems odd for a serious musician to even be concerned about it... but I do agree with the others about maybe taking it on the chin... you may get screwed by the guy, or he might just turn into your best customer, you wont know, but I would make a big point of always going back to someone who helped get to the bottom of any problem... Hope it goes well.

PS Maybe somebody else criticized it, and he doesn't have the sense to shrug them off.

On my own guitars I can see a 2mm zonal asymmetry, if I look straight at it and compare left to right. They are rather small, similar to 00 size. I'm sure it a different thing on a dred or Jumbo!

Here is an example which was caused by a gap of max 1.5mm. If you look carefully you should see the upper left shoulder being lower/flattened. Unfortunately if pressed all the way down, it wasn't fitting too well in the neck anymore and I preferred to live with it.

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Build log

Would certainly not be a unique occurance

If it's a great guitar and he has not done anything bad to it, buy it back and tell him in a polite way you don't think you can live up to his expectations and to try another luthier. You should be able to sell it easily. He probably got in a tight financial spot and needs the money. That's the usual reason in cases like this. Don't be intimidated by his reputation. He's probably done this same thing to other folks too.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

In case this turns into some sort of poll, I cast my vote for buying the guitar back if it is in the same condition as when you sold it and not making another for him.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Right or wrong, you have to decide if you can afford whatever reputation this person may give you. What's the saying: Happy customers tell their friends, unhappy customers tell everybody.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I've had a classical guitarist who got my guitar for about £800, was not so satisfied afterward, then sold that one for £1000. I thought at least he should have been satisfied with the little profit but the reality is he never stops complaining about that guitar he once owned to almost everyone.

2mm asymmetry is acceptable in the handmade market. I STRONGLY suggest you buy back the instrument but only if it is in new condition. If the guy played your instrument and damaged it - then allow some compensation for that. If he refuses, then don't get into a dogfight but politely explain to him what an jerk he is being and how you will take the high road. By no circumstances EVER build another guitar for this guy. He sounds like a loser.

I just went through this on a mandolin. The customer removed his own tuners and bushings and in the process destroyed the peghead veneer. If he has modified/damaged the instrument in any way, he owns it. Damaged or modified goods are not returnable for a refund. I consulted two lawyers and wrote a letter explaining that the instrument was damaged by the owner, sent it back to him, and have not heard another word.
Do not get into a discussion of what is wrong with the instrument. If it's modified/damaged that is all you need to talk about.
Two mm is silly. You don't want to deal with a person like that. He will only find something wrong with the next one too. It's not worth getting the order.

I would not be too concerned, if the guys is as picky, two faced and indecisive as you say, anyone who may know him well enough to listen to his negatives about you will also know him well enough to understand he is usually full of crap. My guess is that someone who dislikes him for these traits has told him his new guitar is crap just in spite and your customer has been stupid enough to take the bait because in truth, he knows no better and does not trust in his own judgment. Forget this pillock, give him his money back resell the guitar to someone who has the capacity to enjoy it for what it is and move on.

Cheers

Kim

The player may have no intention of buying another guitar from you. Saying that he wants you to make another guitar may be nothing more than a way to making this return easier.

Do you have any pics of this guitar?

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Same here

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

I think you should build him a new guitar, and let him keep the first one for free. Make the second one perfect, within .001" everywhere, and make sure it sounds exactly like the notion that he has in his head of perfection. You should also apologize to him publicly, perhaps taking out a full page ad in Acoustic Guitar Magazine to do so. Half a mm off! What kind of a con artist, low-life, crappy luthier are you anyway! After you satisfy him with a perfect guitar, go to his house and mow his lawn or shovel his snow - whichever is appropriate for the season. Wash his feet and give him a back rub. Change the oil in his car, and rotate his tires. Buy his wife a boob job.

P.S. Kim is right. EVERYBODY who knows this guy knows he is a jerk. Just how much damage can he do to your reputation by telling every player on the planet that you built a guitar where the bridge LATERAL placement was off-center by 0.5mm?

If you are wealthy, buy the guitar back - but with NO admission of wrongdoing (there was none), telling him simply that you do not want him to ever own one of your guitars. If you are not wealthy, accept the unmodified guitar back - in whatever its current condition - and let him know that you will try to sell it and give him the proceeds, up to what he paid, IF it sells. If it has been modified, it is his guitar, period.

If he insists on bad-mouthing you, please post his name here so we all know to steer clear of him.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Seems like a pretty good consensus of opinion. I agree.

Examine the guitar.
Don't get caught up in the emotional game, don't let him play you.
Close this down.
Don't build another guitar, you can't guarantee that it will be better enough to satisfy him.

How did this whole idea of money back guarantees get started anyway?! I can see it on production building, but not on custom work. This is something that I can't buy into and won't offer. Clients commission me based upon prior work and reputation, something that I have worked very hard for. They should already have an idea of what to expect. If my work is not up to my own standards it should be evident a the time of sale, not a week or two later.

Sorry, but I feel strongly about this.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/