Official Luthiers Forum!

hi all......i made a guitar for a folk musician about two weeks ago he came to my shop to test it to try before he paid....he spent two hours with and decided he loved it and so he paid....it was a coco/sitka OM and i made it for £800 as i liked the guy...........the guitar turned out great it sounded and looked and played as good as any guitar i have made....

so a week and a half past and he e-mailed me and told me he played a folk festival with it and he utterly loved it.........then e few days later he calls to tell me that my body is out of symetrical by 2mm on one side and although my action and intonation are perfect ......he thinks my bridge is half a mm of centre......now this is a first for me and i feel very insulted and confused......

so how have you guys dealt with this kind of thing.........im really feeling down about guitar making at the moment.....theres no fun in it any more i used to make for the sake of creativity now it just feels like any other repetitive day job.......

joe

So it sounds great and plays great but this guy is upset over a half mm?

he is a self confessed guitar diy guy so i honestly think hes tried to install a pickup and possibly damaged or cracked something and he is just trying to make excuses......i told him i build free with no jigs so my work is not perfectly symetrical......he is not being straight with me at all

Well what is it he expects you to do? Take the guitar back?

Been there........bought it back.
Chalk it up to experience

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

My first thought was too - tell him he's free to return it and buy a Martin OM-1 Sitka/Sapele for the same amount of money...which may be perfectly symmetrical, but probably have worse tone and playability.

Christian

yes Edward .....he wants me to take the guitar back and make him another......and to re sell the one hes got.....which probably by now needs touch up work as he is a real hard player who mistreats his guitars....he is also 500 miles away so i cant inspect the guitar...........its a long scale heavy strung guitar that maybe difficult to re-sell as the masses over here like nice light strung short scalers

joe

Perfect Symetry is not an absoulute, think of asymetrical bridges, or cut-out guitars! Very asymetrical, the issue is setup and sound, and it sounds like that is NOT an issue. This guy is being crazy picky beyond reason.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

honestly guys its a monster of a guitar with great tone and looks its the love it then all of a sudden hate it thing i cant understand.......i just feel like doing nothing to help this guy

Just tell him not to be surprised or disappointed that his hand built guitar may show evidence of being made by hand. A mill or two off the centerline is irrelevant. Does he notice when he's playing it and loving how it sounds and feels? Not likely. Find a way to gently tell him that it's not actually a problem, 'cause it isn't. And don't let one guys bad vibe spoil the party for yourself...

I dare him to find a guitar that is not 2mm .078125" out of symmetric some where some how. Guitars are not machined parts. Get real!!!!! If he wants his money back you have to decide that for your self. In a case like this if I wanted to give the client back his money because I suspected I may get more work out of him later down the road I would tell him that because there is no real flaw in the guitar he has to accept waiting till you are able to resell the guitar. Actually that is in my contract. The client has an approval period. If after the approval period he wants his money back he has to wait till the guitar sells or sell it himself.

I am serious about what I am about to tell you. If he is asking for his money back then He needs money fast due to personal issues. 2mm out of symmetric is not a flaw. If the strings lay symmetrical about the fretboard center line within 1mm from nut to 12th fret then the bridge position is good. None of these things are construction, playability or cosmetic flaws. They are merely more than acceptable manufacturing tolerances and are present on all guitars often at greater tolerances then this.

Don’t let your self get down over this. If you like the guy and want to help him out, give him his money back. If not he should be willing to allow you time to resell it. What he has complained about is not in any way to be considered a flaw in the instrument.

I could be wrong here but I am guessing this sound like a case where written terms were not in place.

First off...if he tried to mod it (i.e. tosses the warranty out)...then he eats his mistakes. I can't imagine Fender or Gibson would give you the time of day if you botched and install of a third party 'whatever'. That you care about the customer/client and their long term happiness is proof that you are a good person and give a [bleep] about your product. Be proud of that!

Second, keep in mind that anyone can find anything wrong with, well...anything. (you should see the flaws the guys on, the BBC show, Top Gear find with 500K$ cars!)
The fact that he only found a couple of little things to b*tch about is a testament to all that is fine and great with it!!!

Keep your spirits up and build again!!! And again!!!

Oh...and smile...or else!

Understandably - and I would really think about building another guitar for this guy - I guess it's quite possible that something may be half a mm off on that guitar as well. Communicate those concerns to him and tell him if perfect symmetry is his prime concern in a guitar, he'd be better of with a foctory guitar.

If you rely on your reputation as a guitar builder, consider the damage he can do by spreading negative word of mouth over the internet and among fellow musicians. You may feel like doing nothing for him, but in the long run this may be much more damaging for you than just buying the guitar back, fixing it up, and selling it again and dealing with him somehow.

Christian

This reminds me of a thread that went down on one of the unsenet groups a year or so ago. Same thing: the guy bought a guitar that sounds and plays fine, but the bridge is 1/16" closer to one edge than the other: it's .75mm off center. He wanted to know if that was 'acceptible'.

The problem is that these folks are applying mass production notions of tolerance to a handmade object. On a production line ANY deviation from spec is as bad as any other. I remember Bob Taylor telling about how they put an extra coat of finish on a batch of necks and had to throw them out because they didn't fit the CNC'd neck pockets. It simply would have taken too much time to correct the problem, and time is the most expensive input on a production line.

In our world there certainly are things that HAVE to be right: fret distances, for example, and the bridge location along the length of the body. If you mess those up the thing won't play in tune (and, BTW, I've seen production guitars where they've have gotten the bridge wrong in that way...). The fact is that there are darn few things on that list, but they're important.

Aside from those, the steadily rising standards of workmanship and finish have made the list a good bit longer in the thirty+ years I've been at it. The problem is that the standards are set by customer expectations that are fueled by production shops. They get so used to looking at 'perfect' symmetry, and flawless finishes, that they assume that's the only right, true, and proper way for a guitar to look. Don't get me wrong; that's a great look, but you won't sell that to the violin crowd: was Strad a lousy workman because he left things asymmetric and didn't sand them?

WE have to get to work on customer expectations, and we're at a distinct disadvantage there. I don't think all of us together command the advertising budget, or produce the numbers of guitars, that Taylor does, and if you add in Martin and Godin and Gibson, we're not even a blip on the radar. And that's just North America.

The sad thing is you've probably lost that guy. The best thing to do might be to cut your losses and buy it back, before he tells everybody what a lousy luthier you are. At least that way you're a nice guy.

I'll leave with one thought: a couple of years ago I showed one of my gutiars to Sharon Isbin. She liked it, a lot. But she asked me a question I could not answer right away: "Is this your best guitar?". The only real answer to that is: "No; that would be the next one". But the smartass response would have been: "Was that your best concert ever?". You might ask your folkie friend if he ever forgot a lyric....

.You posted more while I was writing my reply. He wants a replacement build. Go for it with the understanding that you own the first guitar provided it is in tact and undamaged.

If modifications have been made then he is stuck. but get him to bring the guitar back to the shop for a look over because you can not make a commitment till you see the guitar. Also make sure he understands that perfect body symmetry is not likely out of a factor or hand crafted instrument

If he is trying to get to you due to an alteration gone wrong it will be hard for him to explain when you have the guitar in hand. If he is trying to pull one over on you stand your ground. Also for future build draw up a terms and conditions agreement if you don’t already have one.

thanks for the replies every one.....i feel so green over these issuses..... i have not had a deal go bad in 10 years of making.....i have still got so much to learn its scary........and yes Michael there was no written contracts atall ....all just verbal agreements.........

ps its great to hear all these wise words from you more experianced makers......

A written agreement is not the end all of possible issues but it does aviod a lot of problems due to assumtions left by verbal agreements and gives you a leg to stand on in the descussion. and or small claims court if ever went to that.

Alan,
That is one of the best come backs I've heard in a long time! I laughed out loud when I read it. Thanks for sharing that!

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

I read that Torres often, if not always, built without molds and was not symetrical. I have a 1980 Kohno 30 that I realized long after I bought it that the bridge is at least 1mm off center. It did cause some problems, because I tend to pull the strings off the fingerboard already. A few years ago, I had the bridge holes plugged and redrilled, but I do not recommend that for you. Now I do not pull the strings as much, but the non-symetry is more obvious to the eye. Before I bought this guitar, I had another one shipped, but someone pointed out that the back had severe planer chip out that had been filled with black filler, so I exhanged it for the one that I own.

This is a very expensive model (currently $7000 for a similar model). As I mentioned, I looked at two, and both had defects worse than what you produced.

i forgot to mention that he has another one of my guitars of a shorter scale length and that was made in exactly the same freely built way.......the set up on the guitar in question is spot on.........he thought so for the first week and a half.....there is a more sneaky problem here i really think he has messed up a mod .......i will try and get to the bottom of this and post the outcome.......and as Michael said ....i will draw up terms and conditions for future....

thanks ......joe

To be clear the symmetry between the center of the fretboard and bridge is one thing and not always related to the centerline of the body. The neck could be out of symmetry with the centerline of the body but if the bridge is in symmetry with the neck then there is no issue (with in reason) Also tops sometimes move a tad when attaching to the body. People tend to use the top seam as an absolute centerline. While in most cases it will be very close, sometimes they are off a mm. This will cause the bridge to appear to be off symmetry. But when checking you must use the important centerline (the neck). But we all know that players on the other hand sometimes need this explained to them.

Also I wanted to say. like any good contract a good written commission agreement has terms and conditions that protect both parties interest. Not just the builder.

Want to second the previous comments about getting things in writing to cover both of your arses.

Also, as was said before, don't agree to anything until you have had a chance to verify the condition of the guitar. After only a week and a half, it should be nearly pristine compared to how it was delivered to him. No bad scratches or scuffs (there may be some just from natural playing...its the bad ones I am thinking about), cracks or major finish damages are right out! If it was being returned due to a caved top, sure there would be issues. In this case it is just him being picky so there should be nothing structurally or cosmetically wrong with it. Imagine the response you would get from any retailer out there if you brought back a set of dishes, with obvious damage, because you 'didn't like the color'.

Don't get me wrong, you definitely want to be careful of damaging your reputation or creating an enemy out of a bad customer experience. Do what you can to fix this but...don't let them take you for a ride either.

-Matthew

yes Michael this is what i tried to tell this customer......i said take a ruler and measure from the the 12th fret fret ends to each frontal corner of the bridge wings and tell me what reading he got.......he said they were exact and that the intonation and action were perfect but he wants a new guitar as the symetry is off he is a really well educated guy but right now i cant make any sense of what he is trying to say every e-mail he sends is an adventure

joe

thanks Matthew......he is a sound engineer with a fair bit of clout in the folk scene and i think hes holding my rep to randsom.......i feel totally helpless

joe

yoou have to tell him you need him to bring the guitar in to take a look at it. don't go any further than that with him. be polite and I would have no issue building another provided there is no issue customer induced with the guitar. often the picy clients will be you best repeat clients if you make them happy but you also have make him understand that you are hand working wood not machining steel. you have to deall with what the wood will allow. You do your upmost to insure symmetry but 2mm over 508mm in lenth of the body" is 0.0039mm per mm of length is a darn tight tolerance any way you look at it.

The imprtant thing here for both of you is a face to face with the guitar in question present.