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I know this topic has been covered.I thought I`d throw in my 2 cents worth.This was my first attempt with EM 6000.One of the big concerns seems to be the blue tint it leaves.I don`t see it,but I sealed with shellac which creates a nice amber tint.Maybe this solved that.Also it can be tinted with Trans dye or other tints to create an amber hue.Maybe another solution.The biggest problem I had was in drop filling,which seemed endless.I decided to drop fill the neck specifically the bound fret board in a few spots with CA.Much easier and one time did the trick.I sanded the finish after the first day of 4 coats and this left a few obvious spots that needed filling.This is the way I`ll do the body next time.I basically used Rod True`s schedule ,Thanks Rod ,except I shot it straight out of the can.Easy Money.Now it`s on to buff out in a few days,by hand.Any tips there would be appreciated.I`ll keep you posted.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

One other thing I should mention concerning the blue tint.In between the first and second set of coats I left a brass filter in the spray gun cup and when I opened it to stir it before the next shoot the em tech was definately turning blue in the cup.I threw this out and shot new finish.I had to use the same filter ,because it`s the only one that fits those cups,but I took it off immediately after I shot and cleaned it ,but didn`t put it back on until I got ready for the next coat.The em Tech in the cup stayed white,and I never had this problem with the rest of the finish process.The em 6000 was definately having some kind of reaction with the brass filter.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

James, what woods have you used it over. I've used it on Sapele, mahogany, and Zebrawood with no blue tint, but an electric I did with black shader base coats shows a hint of blue, but the light gray top on it is crystal clear. I'm wondering if it's something to do with the darker colors?????

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Rob

Rob, other folks have said they noticed the blue tint over the really dark colors. I've only used it on walnut and cocobolo; I also seal with shellac so I get the amber tint too. After level sanding to P800 I switch to automotive type paper and wet sand (with mineral spirits) to 2000. Then hand buff with Novus #2 plastic polish.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks James. I too shoot it right out of the can.

I did find that the EM6000 showed its blue side on the EIR guitar I recently finished. However, on Maple it was clear as can be. I'm going to start a hog/addi guitar and hope that there is no blue tint on the hog.

As for filling, CA is becoming my favorite as it doesn't shrink back over time, is very quick and easy to fill pores or drop fill pin holes.

After this can is gone though, I think I'll be going back to nitro or giving the KTM-SV a try. I can get Mohawk classic instrument lacquer locally but I'll have to pay duty on the KTM-SV, there is some deciding factor there. Also I can get much more lacquer/$$ versus the KTM-SV.

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Your Welcome Rod.Let us know how things go with the KTM-SV .I`ll be trying this finish in the future also.The never ending quest.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I still have most of a gallon of EM-6000 but will probably try the KTM-SV after that is gone.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I am close to getting the final coats of EM6000 on my mad rose OM. Frankly, I'm not as concerned as many seem to be with the blue cast. I think it can be controlled by keeping the coats thin and allowing enough time between applications. I kind of pushed the east asian rosewood guitar, shooting up to six coats in a day--three in the morning and three in the evening. When done, that guitar had a bluish cast, which is now all but gone. the mahogany guitar I shot two years ago has no bluish cast, even in daylight. Like you James, I shot a couple of coats of amber shellac to seal. I now have 6 coats EM6000 on the mad rose, and the finish appears very clear. My coats on this guitar are not as heavy as on the east asian RW, and I am only shooting 3 coats a day.

Frankly I like the EM6000. I have read all the talk about KTM-SV, but personally I cringe when I think of spraying a guitar with spar varnish. I've been a woodworker for years and built all sorts of furniture and have only used spar varnish when staining boat interiors or refinishing an old Maharaja waterski. Yeah, I'm sure KTM-SV is different, but old perceptions are hard to overcome.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Ken, if EM6000 is working for you, then go with it! I will point out that KTM-SV is not related to a traditional spar varnish. I'm guessing that term was used mostly for marketing purposes, in that it could be used in place of a spar varnish. I would also like to point out that KTM-SV is a bit harder than EM6000. Obviously this is an advantage as a guitar finish, but it does make it harder to buff out.

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Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
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Rob this was my first time using it.It was on Black Hearted Sassafrass.Which isn`t very dark.Like many others I`ve been a Nitro user,and am trying to move away from it.I don`t like the cure time.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Hey Ken, I really don't think that acrylic lacquer is dependent on how thick or quick the coats are applied in order for the blue tint to show up. It's just a nature of acrylic lacquers. It does however show up most prevelent in darker (ie: EIR and darker) woods and usually only in natural light (and there has to be a good amount, like in the middle of summer, outside, no clouds etc...)

What really killed me on the EM-6000 was when presenting the refinished guitar I did with it to the owner. We were outside, middle of summer, nice sunny day etc... and I was telling him about the blue tint and he was holding it out in the direct sunlight. He saw it, but didn't think much at all of it. His dad drove up in his truck, got out and the very first thing he said was "Hey, it's got a blue tint to it!" and he's not even a wood worker
Right there I knew I would never use it on dark woods again. Mahogany might be as dark as I'd go with it. And I do find it's not as hard as nitro.

Those are my observations with the EM-6000. Looks great on my Maple guitar though.

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Hi Rod,

Respectfully, I disagree. Based on my limited experience, I think the amount of blue cast seen shortly after finishing is directly dependant on how thick or quickly the coats are applied. Perhaps compared to nitro, acrylic will never be as clear, but a half dozen coats of EM6000 are going to look a lot clearer than a dozen and a half. Also shooting the lacquer heavy and not allowing enough time between coats seems to trap moisture that takes a very long time to work its way out. The mahogany on my OMC is darker wood than the SE asian RW on the OM, and the mahogany never really had a bluish cast even in direct sunlight. That finish seems perfectly clear. The SE Asian OM had a very bluish cast after spraying, and the main difference (other than using USL on the OMC) was that I rushed getting that one done. I was also battling some fisheyes and put several extra coats on to ensure I had a thick enough finish after leveling. It took a couple of months for the finish to really clear up, which it eventually did. However, the difference in clarity just after finishing these two guitars was night and day.

The mad rose OM is only my 4th using Target's lacquers. I also sprayed the maple SJ with it. But as you noted, tough to see any bluish cast on light guitars. I am by no means an expert with Target's finishes. However, I have had some very good success with it. Granted we all have to find what works for us, and I present a counter view primarily because my experience has been different, and I would hate having someone considering water based finishes overlook these finishes because of all the discussion regarding a blue cast.

I'll have the mad rose OM sprayed and buffed out in a couple of weeks. If the finish turns out as clear as the mahogany OMC, I'll know I am on to something. It is looking very unblue after 2 coats of Target's amber shellac and 6 coats of EM6000. The buyer is a rather discriminating collector of guitars, so I am hopeful the first words of his mouth aren't: "It's Blue!"

Ken

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I've migrated from rattle-can (StewMac nitro) to KTM-9 to Target ultima to EM6000. Every step just got better. My breakthrough came when I finally got my hvlp spray gun adjusted properly. That means very thin coats (just barely wet looking). I spray 3 coats/day for three consecutive days. Final drop filling with CA after day 2, then minimum 3-4 weeks before I even think about wet sanding to 600, then random orbit w/Abralon from 500 up to 4000, then all 4 grades of mazerna compound. Not skipping any compound grit and being really careful at each buffing step. My finishes now get consistantly favorable feedback from customers, and not one comment about any blue tint. I used to get it with KTM...but no more. Just my 2 cents.

Jay,
Are these Abralon pads for hand use, are they sheets for a 1/4 sheets sander, discs etc.?

That's an interesting. As a novice I can't comment much on the finishing aspect, however being in the eyecare profession, amber tinting kind of makes since. Yellow lenses filters out blue light. Blue waves scatter first as the pass through the optic of the eye, this is why glasses for shooting are yellow, basically the same principle as "Blueblocker" sunglasses, you are increasing contrast by removing the scattering blue rays. Since light is passing through the finish and then bouncing back off the rosewood etc you have essentially created an amber filter.

Concerning the blue tint, I believe both Rod and Ken are correct. Now let me preface the following by saying that I don't know this for a fact, but it is an educated guess as a chemist.

I believe the blue tint in acrylic finishes is fundamentally a result of the refractive index of acrylic and the cloudiness inherent in any finish. No finish is perfectly clear and certainly not waterbornes. When light passes through the finish, it bounces around off the small particles that cause the cloudiness. Think of light in a smoke filled room. The more it does this, the more you "see" the finish. Given the refractive index of acrylic, you see blue.

So the thinner the finish and the better the application, the clearer it is. This can greatly minimize the blue cast, but it will never eliminate it altogether. Now other finishes are not perfectly clear either, but the refractive index is such that they don't show a blue cast.

The reason you see it more on dark woods, with black being the worst, is that there is less light being reflected back to your eyes, so the pale blue light caused by the finish is more visible. When you have a light colored wood such as maple, a lot of light is being reflected back by the wood and the blue light is drowned out, so to speak.

Tinting acrylic finishes may help them look warmer, but I have found that it does not eliminate the blue cast.

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Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
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Rod, this is a quote from Jeff Weiss (Target GURU) on the Target forum, which may distill it down a bit.
"A bluish haze is an indication that the wet film coats are being applied too heavy. Try to stay within the 2-3mil wet film thickness per coat. If you do see the blush don't panic. It will clear out and dissipate as the film dries and cures"

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Dave
Milton, ON

Dave, with all due respect to Todd, who I dealt with quite a lot, I do not believe that statement is 100% accurate. See my post above. He is the head guy at Target, so he is trying to sell product. PM me if you want to know more about my dealings with Target.

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Randy Muth
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