Official Luthiers Forum!

I watched the auction for the backs and sides of Madagascar Rosewood donated by LMI. Value $500.00. Please enlighten me on why that particular set is worth that much. I see it is very well quartered. It has that landscaping like old Brazilian Rosewood and Quartered Ziricote. But does this make it worth $500.00. I looked at Allied Luthiers website and they have Madagascar Rosewood sets for $250-$320 a set. Most are not as nice as the auction set, I agree. But they also have Ziricote for and Malaysan Blackwood in the same price range. These sets are OK, but if a set of Ziricote that had the same quartering, landscaping flecking etc. be worth $500.00? Is the fact that the wood is on the CITES list and pretty much banned a factor. Is the Gibson investigation a factor. Is the fact that Martin has suspended use a factor or that LMI does not sell the wood anymore? Just curious.

Thanks
Ken

Not qualified to comment too much Ken but that was an exceptional set being offered for auction the likes of which i have not seen for around 5 years. I would suggest that the reason the price was quoted so high is because 'that' class of Madrose is now just about as rare as dark old growth BRW and if you want it, that is what you need to pay.

No doubt MBW and Zirocote will be there real soon.

Cheers

Kim

Mad rw is not on Cites as far as I know ..

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Hi Ken,
Those (4 piece) sets were only available for a short time through LMI several years ago. The source dried up. What is on the market now is rift and flat sawn. No where near the figure or accurately quartered as the set auctioned off. There are a few of us who still have some sets in our stashes and can get those prices or more for them today. I forsee the isues with Gibson and Martin will only put the spot light on the wood and drive its worth up even higher;)

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Thank you for your replies. Another question. I have several sets of Ziricote that look just like the figure of the Madagascar Rosewood. Completely quaretered. Flecking like you can't believe. Landscaping. The whole nine yards of fine backs and sides. Should I be valuing these sets at a higher price than the Ziricote sold by regular suppliers. I am not going to sell the sets. I just want to know what I really have.

thanks
Ken

My opinion is that it is not just the rarity that has an affect on the high price... Think about it--a rookie baseball card is only worth something if that player was good. BUT, I also don't think that Madagascar Rosewood is any "better" than run-of-the-mill tonewood.

At prices like that, I will have to stick with the run-of-the-mill stuff unless someone is adamant and willing to pay the difference.

My hope is that these things will be played and listened to rather than being looked at, but the beautiful thing about a "free market" is that the consumer decides!

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

what exactly are you calling "run-of-the-mill tonewood?"

i think there are a lot of people that would disagree with that statement.

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sweat the small stuff.

The idea that there is something "superior" about Madagascar Rosewood in terms of sound or workability compared to a run-of-the-mill wood like East Indian Rosewood or even plain old Mahogany is sort of silly to me. Each tonewood imparts its own unique characteristics to a guitar's sound and that is that--the builder and buyer's preferences will decide whether or not it sounds "good".

It is no surprise to me that most of the exotic woods used to build now are the exact same woods used by pen turners and bowl makers... I love the looks of an exotic back set as much as the next guy but I think the original question was "Is MadRose really 'worth' the prices it commands". Answer: Yes, it is because people are willing to pay that. But it is not worth it to me!

To me, guitars should be a balance between a tool and a work of art. Folks like the Padma may be more on the "tool" side whereas a guy like Grit Laskin or Ervin Somogyi lean more toward the "work of art" side. Maybe my tune will change when I get some high rollers on the wait list, but for now I'll stick with the basics.

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

I know that this wood isn't on the cites treaty so what is Gibson accused of doing wrong? I read the news clips it says they smuggled wood from Madagascar to Germany. Being that it's not on the cites list what makes that illegal? Can someone elaborate on this?

MRS .. it was an embargo put on by the current madagascar govt (and the US respects the embargo) .... kinda like folks in the US buying and importing Cuban cigars .... Niagara Falls Canada, no probs, we have no issues with Cuba .. cross the river to Niagara Falls NY - big trouble.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Thanks for the answer guys. I have read a few news reports on it but none mentioned the embargo. They all just mentioned the wood as illegal...mike

Thanks for all the information on this subject. I guess is people want something bad enough and are willing to pay for it, than the price a set of tonewood commands is the price it commands. I think the auction set is visually stunning and worth the price to someone. But if I were to spend $500.00 on a set of backs and sides, I would be sleeping in my workshop instead of the house.

Thanks for all reples
Ken

You get to sleep in u'r house! You mean inside in a proper bed with the rest of the family???

Sorry but i must be missing something here Must be a noob i reckon

Cheers

Kim

I guess another factor effecting price will be where your customers are. Even if you have the resources and can find some of these stunning exotics, if international travel (with instrument) or with customers abroad, it wont be worth anything to you if you cant sell the instrument due to thes einternational embargos. The US is a huge market so unlikely to be affected for some time, but many European builders are already in the situation where using certain woods is simply impossible if most of their customer base is abroad. Its still possible in the UK to find nice old growth Rio, but without documentation its effectively becomming worthless despite its obvious age, unless building for yourself or only for the local market... As someone who loves this exotic stuff, its frustrating, but you can see the point from a conservation perspective in that by making it impossible to trade, you will eventually kill the demand, and then it makes it pointless for the the illeagal traders... still frustrating though considering that the damage was not done by instrument makers...

Will it kill the demand by making it impossible to legally trade? I find that hard to believe.

I thought clear cutting was part of the situation
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Sometimes I am very puny.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

NOt necessarily with amateurs, but pros looking to export/ship internationally - there wil come a point where its simply no longer possible with an ever increasing number of exotics. It is a sad situation as the problems were not caused by luthiers, but they will tend to pay the price for the indiscriminate felling of the past...

For amateurs, its a case of 'stocking up' now while you can still get hold of some of these at 'sensible' prices. That set of Madagascan is definitely 'worth' the $500 when you compare that to other exotic prices - the price of African Blackwood, Rio, even those such as Ziricote or Malaysian Blackwood and the ebonies its relatively good value considering the beauty of that piece.

Ironically though, as someone above pointed out, 'plainer' yet in pure tonal terms 'better' sets of things such as Honduran Rosewood or decent hog are relatively cheap!