Official Luthiers Forum!

I've been very hard hit with allergic reactions,to the point where i'm wondering if i should simply quit the lutherie pursuit.Since i own a music shop,repairs must be done and get done.I've taken many of the obvious precautions with masks and dust collecters and staying away from cocobola and such and realize i could do more,however i don't want to zip up in a moon expedition fashion when i descend to my workshop.Any advice,experiences would be much appreciated.Paul.

Im not sure if they could do anything but maybe talk to an allergy doctor? Sorry to hear that.

I would like to know more about allergys as well. Like what type of woods to watch out for and what to do if you have a reaction of some sort. Maybe someone could fill us in.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

You may also check into some of the skin barrier creams and skin allergy wash products out there... I don't know specific recommendations, but I am sure a Dermatologist could recommend some good ones.

These barrier creams protect dry skin from having those oils soak into the skin.... They work very well.

I know we use some at work when working around certain chemicals... and there are products out there that keep Poison Ivy at bay... They all seem to work the same way -- some sort of chemical that prevents the oils that irritate the skin from soaking in....

Dust masks are also handy....

Otherwise, I feel for you... Nothing like having a hobby that ruins your day.

Thanks

John

Dust masks only stop big particules... they don't stop small wood dusts and particular that could allergetic (minerals, oils, etc...). You can grab most approprioate masks that can grap those particules and bacteries. Expensive, but, you know...

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

Thanks guys.Filippo,neti pod?Is this a herb in pill form?

Its a little pot used to clear out the nasal passages.

Paul-
From time to time I suffer from allergies/asthma, so I know how troubling it can be.
Have you figured out what you are allergic to?
What are the symptoms?
Do you experience the same symptoms when visiting other woodworking/luthier shops? sawmill? lumberyard?
Do you have fresh air supply into your shop?
Do you have an air filter system as well as dust collection?
Is there a humidifier in the shop area or on your furnace? Checked it for mold?
Do you smoke? Allow others to smoke in the shop?
Any possibilities of mold in your shop area in the lumber pile, damp corners, etc.?
What do you use in the way of epoxies, CA, finishing products?
Where do you store your supplies/finishes?

You can solve the problem, even if it means changing your way of work. John Guzzwell (famous boatbuilder and sailor) developed epoxy allergy and switched to a completely new adhesive system and building technique in his 60s/70s, so anything is possible.

Cheers
John

I would echo John's question - it would be useful to know what it is you are allergic to. It might be unrelated to wood.

Another thought would be to use hand tools as much as possible to reduce fine particulates.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

My doctor`s wife is an allergist ,and he said she recomends Quercitin,which is a natural product.It seems to help with all types of allergies.Especially if you start taking it a couple of weeks before allergy season .Also she said using a sinus rinse after working with exotic woods is very helpful.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

The rinses do help quite a bit. I recommend using it in the shower...no worries about the rinse, snot and gunk getting all over.

I learned that Spanish Cedar does me in...sucks, I love the smell. So far I've been luck with most other materials.

Hi Paul

I feel for you, I only go through the seasonal Ragweed reaction and it makes me crazy for 6 weeks. Go to an allergist and have the scratch tests to see what bothers you, and let them know about the woods and any chemicals involved in your work. I know a guy I worked with that had developed an chemical allergy due to some of the things we used in the plant, he could not go into the paint shop without getting a lung reaction. You might also check for mold in your store and home shop this can cause bad reactions in certain people.

Good luck
Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

this is what an ENT recommended. It is less cumbersome than the neti pot
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod. ... =407235265

Yep...that is the rinse stuff I was talking about. Quite painless and easy...as long as you use the stuff they come with and not just straight water.

the directions says to use distilled water. i use plain tap water with the salt packet and it works fine.

R

What kind of allergic reaction are you having? Allergies can show up as a rash, nasal congestion, wheezing, headaches, or in my case a bad attitude. Your family doc can probably help you as much as a allergist. Skin patch tests are controversial as are desensitization shots.
I think the steam from a hot shower works as well as a nasal wash, but runs up the power bill.

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

Paul, whatever kind of allergies you have is due to high histamine levels in your body. You need to be on a maintenance antihistamine ( I would recommend Claritin) and take it in the AM. I've seen a lot of allergy specialist in Tulsa tell people to take Claritin in the AM and zyrtec in the PM. Even though they are both antihistamines and both claim to be "24 hours" relief, they are different molecules. You may even need to try to get this allergy/histamine level under control with a nasal steroid like flonase (prescription but comes in generic!!) or oral steroid like medrol dose pack (prescription but more side effects than nasal). I have allergy problems and take Claritin every AM every day for the last 6 years or more and I can def. tell when I miss a dose. Also, make sure you mask up!

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

If it is a skin reaction, hot showers will make it worse. This opens up your pores and drives the allergen deeper into the epidermis. Think of poison ivy. If you know you've been out in it take a cool shower with soap to break up the oils and hopefully you will wash the allergen off before it has time to act.

Seam can help with nasal congestion though.

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

Thanks again guys. I sometimes wonder what I'm not allergic to. I do take several allergy meds. Allegra D180 and I have taken nasel steroids for a while. The salt rinse is something I go to as soon as things get severe. This last time was simply routing, a rosette in a cedar top (mask on), ebony a rosewood have'nt been good, but mahogany, redwood, and now cedar were'nt either. My episode with some minute cocobolo almost put me in the hospital. My game plan is as follows:
-I will clean (Lord have mercy) my basement shop and have someone else thoroughly vacuum the shop.
-change my filter types to bags rather then the exesting hanging types in my wet-dry vacuums. The shop currently has an upright Jet dust collector and a boxed Jet hanging filter. I'm planning on putting a fan in my small, non-opening window, since I have no fresh air, which is not so good. Anyway.... downdraft sanding tables would be a good thing, better masks, etc. I'll try some of your suggestions and let you know.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Paul

My mentor Luthier has a serious allergy to zircote.

Says his face and especially eyes swell up like a watermelon and he can't do anything.

Realized this after making a zircote guitar for his brother. Had to finish it in a full body suit which I think i hilarious.

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Check out my site at: http://www.TrueAxeGuitars.ca

diet also effects allergic susceptibility. I used to suffer terribly from hay fever but not anymore. I strongly believe that not drinking milk is a solution for me. Of course I can't say if dairy is effecting you but its worth considering that something in your diet may be making you more sensitive to allergic reaction.

Stefan

Several times a day I rinse out my nose with saline - I get the pint squirt bottles of contact lens saline at Costco, because the little 2 oz. "Ocean" stuff is crazy expensive. I squirt in and let it run back to my throat then spit out through the mouth. Since I found that a Neti Pot doesn't work any better than this for me, I searched and found the SinuPulse. It is great, way more effective than a Neti Pot. I use the packets they sell that make ringer's solution - more soothing and effective than straight saline.

More importantly, however, it sounds like you need to attack the dust problem at its source. Doing this right is unfortunately a significant undertaking. Check out Bill Pentz' site for his extremely thorough, scientific and scary info on wood dust. ClearVue Cyclones, a sponsor here at OLF, makes dust collection equipment that will perform to the standards set out on Pentz' site. I'm on the verge of taking the plunge to outfit my shop with a 5hp outfit.

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

Hello heath advocates and allergy sufferers.

I have been a involved in this area of health care for a good number of years. I don't give individual advice.

A lot of the above is accurate. Some is not and misleading and dangerous.

N95 respirators are effective in trapping the dust that is dangerous. But when the mask comes off and the wearer shakes their clothes they inhale some dust inevitably, much of which gets trapped in the nose causing irritation or an allergic reaction. Nasal lavage is good for this as has been brought up in this thread. It can be nearly free and as describe here www.mayoclinic.com/health/nasal-lavage/MM00552 . Daily lavage is highly recommended as a defense against chronic wood dust inhalation. I have a medical reference for this.

Bill Pentz website has information that is controversial in some ways. Of course his intentions are good, he is also selling a product, or at least the last time I looked. If you skip it you will be okay.

Antihistamines are indicated for some but not as a general defense against exposure to dust. They have serious side effects that can effect the heart and blood vessels. They should be recommended or prescribed by a health care professional who is aware if your history and other medications.

I should write a thorough sticky on this someday. Perhaps a publication.

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Ken

I covered the ER for a large interventional cardiology group for many years and cannot say I ever remember anyone in trouble because of antihistamines. The older ones, like Benadryl, can have an anticholinergic effect which technically can increase one's heart rate if enough is taken, but we are talking about overdose situations. Decongestants, like Sudafed, are another story- they are related to adrenalin and can most certainly raise your BP and heart rate. ( not to mention what happens if you get caught turning it into meth )
Claritin ( not Claritin-D ) is remarkably safe- believe me if the FDA put it OTC, it has been scrutinized. If you have serious health issues, it goes without saying that you should not take any drug or supplement unless your doc approves it. ( Go ahead and use a neti pot though- if you ask you may be told that he or she dosen't believe in medical marijuana...)

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

I of course defer to the knowledge of a health care professional as concerns dust related health issues, so I hope to be corrected on anything I posted that may be innacurate or dangerous.

I can't vouch for the medical information/claims on Bill Pentz' site, but insofar as we agree that free dust can cause problems, it's logical that capturing as much of it as possible is prudent, and it sure seems that Pentz has done excellent research on dust capture. Also, his fundamental point that it is the smallest microscopic particles which are both the hardest to capture and pose the most health risk is corroborated elsewhere - see article in American Lutherie #86 for example.

Reviewing Pentz's site doesn't look like he's selling anything per se. I choose to believe he's really about providing a public service to fellow woodworkers. He is of course associated with ClearVue in that they sell his cyclone design. It makes sense that he'd get a cut, but I don't feel he is in any way hyping the dangers of wood dust to make money.

Also, I'd like to reiterate my mention of the SinuPulse for nasal irrigation/sinus lavage. The thing really is the business. The ideas of its advantage over a neti pot are that the solution is delivered under slight pressure instead of just gravity which gets the saline into deeper recesses of the sinuses, and that the stream pulses. Apparently, abuse of your sinuses with dust exposure can eventually shut down the activity of the cilia which line the sinus walls (these are microscopic hair like structures that keep mucus moving and eject the junk that accumulates in your air passages). Supposedly the frequency of the pulsating stream matches the natural oscillation of the cilia and helps stimulate them back to life. I've never had what I'd call excellent dust collection in my 20 years of woodworking and my sinuses are quite thoroughly abused. Whereas a neti pot feels like a very superficial rinse for me, this thing does a much deeper cleaning and makes my nose feel healthy. Also, I've trained my kids to use it and witnessed some serious "oh my God" globs of gunk get ejected when they were sick. If you find a neti pot doesn't do much for you, check it out.

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...