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Hi folks

I am being put to test by one of my guitars: a noticeable rattle that comes from the head of the guitar. It only does it on certain notes and almosts disappears when I either squeeze gently with my hands on the head, or if I put a spring loaded capo hanging on the end of the head.

This is a first time event on close to 40 guitars... Here are the remedies that I have tried so far:

-I changed the tuners and tried 3 differents ones: no avail
-I have changed the nut twice: that ain't it
-I have cleaned the inside of the holes where the rollers go: still not it
-I have changed the strings twice: no go
-I changed the saddle: err... no

Some other observations:

-This is definitly NOT a fret buzz. It changes notes depending on the string tension, and appears at random on about a dozen places.
-Since it does changes places, it would then logically be frequency driven (a combination of sting tension and note played).
-The big improvement when putting pressure on the head (or adding weight with the capo) would suggest that it is not something inside the head that is loose (everything is solid in there anyways). I thought the head plating could have come unglued in a spot, but I can’t feel anything that isn’t right.
-I strung the guitar before finishing, and it didn’t do it then. This problem only occured with the finish on.
-If you stick your ear next to the sound hole, you can barely hear it, so it doesn’t come from the soundbox. You can hear it pretty clearly as you stick your ear close to the head.

I am very puzzled by this one. Your observations would be quite welcome.

Cheers
Pat

You might be hearing a truss rod rattle?

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Rattlin head eh.

well me head rattles...50 years of sex drugs rock and role and me suppried it still works...well sometimes me forgets things.

Back off yer trusss rod...check it for the gremlin.

tighten yer truss rod...check for the gremlin again.

If the ratliin is in fact the truss rod....well you know what that entails.

Of course you could do what buddie did to his truss rod. Him poped a few frets drilled
tiny holes down to the hard core of where that gremlin rattled the trus rod and injected some hot liquid honey down inside. Put the axe outside for the night to let the honey get real cold and solidify.

No me aint suggesting you go this route, but it did work for him, smothered them gremlins with honey , rattle gone and he now has the sweetest neck you never did play on.


blessings
the
Padma

dude, sometimes you just gotta take me with a grain of salt.

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I would suspect truss rod too. What kind is it?

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

From Pat's description it sounds like a classical guitar so I suspect no truss rod.

Pat - when you say "squeeze", is it gentle pressure to stop the buzz? Also what happens if you press the top of the peghead and then the back of the peghead - does one stop it or do you have to press both together? Also what finish is on the peghead - if it didn't happen before finishing as you said?

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

What part of Pat's description indicates that this is a classical guitar? I did not get that.

Barry,

The part that talks about cleaning out the holes where the "rollers" go and on looking at posts he has made in the past where Classical guitars feature prominently - but I could be very wrong. I'm sure Pat will tell us soon.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Barry,

The part that talks about cleaning out the holes where the "rollers" go, no mention of checking truss rod or truss rod nut rattle in his tried remedies and on looking at posts he has made in the past where Classical guitars feature prominently - but I could be very wrong. I'm sure Pat will tell us soon.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

So Dave, are thinking like I am that the veneer may have a loose bubble somewhere that is producing a sympathetic oscillation?

You have all my sympathy. I've been there. . .
Unlikely but check the seating of both Nut and Saddle. If you have a tuning fork try going around various 'suspect' areas of the Guitar to see if it will trigger a buzz in a particular location. Try this with Tuners, Nut, saddle off. You can also try to tap with your knuckles at various locations.
It may well be coming from the head/neck area. . . but sometimes these things can be very deceptive, just a warning.

Hi Pat,

You've been around longer than I have, so maybe you've already thought of what I'm about to suggest, but here goes anyway:

- You mention you changed the nut twice, but did you set-up the string height the same on the three nuts? I'm thinking it might be a string back-resonating (I may not be using the right term here). Meaning the portion of the string between the finger on the fretboard and the nut may resonate and thus rattles on the frets. Try shiming your nut to increase the string height at the nut. If you hear the rattle on open strings, than it's not it!
- To find out if some part of your headstock veneer is loose, gently tap with your nail all around the headstock. You will here it if you strike a section that is not glues well. Since we are talking about resonance, maybe it needed the extra weight of the finish to resonate and rattle like that.

That's all I'm thinking for now... Hope it helps!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Someone already mentioned that this may be a classical, so the following suggestion should be ignored if it doesn't apply.

If the neck is a bolt on joint, was it removed for finishing? If so, make sure the bolt/nut inside is 100% tight...could be a vibrating washer or even a splinter buzzing against the bolt/nut.

Again, if I am waaaay off...then well, you didn't read this, and I was never here.

-Matthew

Hi guys

Sorry I was outside all day, taking advantage of the last few days of nice weather before the snow comes...

Yes, it is a classical guitar. I should have mentionned it.

So, there is no truss rod. I have tried tapping on the headstock in different locations but I just can't hear of feel any spot that would be unglued.

Good point about the sometimes deceiving origin of the rattle Michael. If I put a capo on the second fret for example, I still get the buzz but you and detect very clearly that it comes from the head, has the capo kinds of "separate" the strings vibrating area in two parts.

The bummer is that I need this guitar for a demo stand at a concert next Thursday at University of Sherbrooke. So if I can't find a quick fix by tomorrow at noon, I will have to remove the neck (luckily it's a bolt on) and make a new one. I just won't have time to finish it with my usual waterborne lacquer. French polished shellac it will be.

Thanks a lot for the input guys. Please let me know if you think of anything else.

Cheers

Pat

I had a situation where it sounded like the noise was coming from the headstock area and it was the saddle....everything looked good but the saddle needed just a bit of work?

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Gwaltney Guitars

From what you say the rattle seems to show up at a particular pitch, so if you tune the strings down a couple of frets, it shows up two frets further up. If that's the case, it is likely enough to be some resonance of the guitar. So the next question is: what's the pitch that it shows up at? This will really help to narrow the field.

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Get someone to hold and play the cord or notes that creat the buzz.

Then you start touching with finger tip and with about a 1/4 dowel or unshaprend new pencil with rubber on the end untill you isolate its source...and just don't just do the head stock...imagine a 1/4 X Y horizontal grid covering the whole guitar and you touch every singel intersection and the centers of them intersections.... bridge, nut, saddle, tuners, tuner butons and the wormscrews and the brass coggs, strap buttons and strings behind the note or cord that producess the buzz, top back and ribs. EVERYTHING!

you are touching first to hear if it dampens the buzz and secondly to Feel for the buz.

Do not be surprised if is actualy comming from someplace else.

If all that fails....use the honey.


blessings
the
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Hi guys

I re-rechecked everything, including The Padma's pencil eraser method (my uses my fingertip instead, but the eraserhead works better), and still no luck.

So, I am making a new neck. I'll let you guys know if I discover anything suspicious in the post-mortem.

Thanks again for you input. Much appreciated.

Pat

Years ago, Carleen Hutchins' Catgut Journal asked its readers for lists of everything they'd encountered that caused a violin to buzz. My favorite was the dead and dessicated beetle larva rattling around in the hole it had bored in the top plate from inside the violin. The hole was nearly invisible even with top plate removed. The larva was discovered when the top was x-rayed.

Gee Eric

thank you for postin this...it might just be the answer to all the buzzin and rattlin in me head...me gonnna go see me Dr. an get me head exrayed for some of that there beetle larva stuff...betchya that been me problem...although I don't think it will do much for the voices......had me a buddy, they locked him up when he started talking about "the voices".... and me hear tell of other dudes they been locken up so me no be tellen them Dr.s about the voices. No me don't be.

Sometimes when the buzzin and the rattlin and the voices get it all together it aint a bad grove to make sawdust to. When me figure a way to get a line out, I'd lay down some tracks and post it for ya all to hear.

blessings
the
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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check your neck mode....... jody

Jody:
The neck mode was one of the things I was thinking about. It sure would help to know what pitch the rattle is at....

Yes Alan, I was just suggesting something to try , my first solo build had a similar thing going on , which indeed was the " neck mode" .I am sure improperly placed resonances in the other lower modes can have similar strange results. although i have not experienced such happenings..... yet, but I do look forward to it ! LOL Jody