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Good Afternoon,

Does anyone have any idea what exactly this product is?

Is it, or similar a product, available to the retail public?

Thank you,

Ray

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

Hi Ray,

Not sure if it's the same, but probably a similar product would be a good quality violin oil varnish.
Geo. Heinl sells violin varnish http://www.georgeheinl.com/catalogue/in ... level3=117
May be worth checking out.

Cal

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Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers!

Dana uses Behlen Rockhard.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

i am assuming this is a varnish Dana Bourgeois is using. If so Email Dana, he is pretty good about sharing info.

Laurent I was guessing the same thing

When I was there it was Rockhard. Stinks really bad like a womans perm to me. I hated end of day when Mike put the bodies in the bubble overnight

I don't know if you are referring to a Copal picture varnish that is made by Lefranc and Burgeois. If so it may not be that suitable for musical instruments and there are probably better alternatives.
Behlens does smell pretty bad, used it on one instrument and I've decided that's enough. Pretty tough varnish though.

we were putting out 8-10 guitars a week and his fininish is very nice Mike does a great job, so like many things it is a matter of technique and not the finish. I wouldn't use it, that said not because a bad finish for guitars. Didn't come back for finish repairs.

Stan, you're thinking about the urethane finish Dana has been doing for a while. Yes, coming out of the spray booth in the "bubble room" it smells pretty bad, but gases off pretty quickly, if I recall. It's not an oil varnish.

Dana started offering an oil varnish finish last year, as an option. I saw him at NAMM and we talked about varnish, among other things. Rockhard is a short oil varnish.

I think it smells wonderful, especially when thinned with (real) turpentine. It reminds me of boats and old cabins.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

MY BAD. After I did the post, I got to thinking about that. Happens when get old.

I'm not a violin expert - my experience is limited to that ~15% complete fiddle project that I'll maybe get around to working on again some day - but from what I remember, violin oil varnishes serve a different purpose than guitar finishes. They're neither very hard nor very durable, and run the gamut from 'chippy' to 'gummy'. Plus they're expensive to buy, and a whole lot of trouble to make.

It's a fascinating subject to read about, though. The Strad covers this topic in depth pretty often. If your local library allows access to the EBSCO MasterFile database from your home, you can search, download and read 'em in .pdf form if you're interested.

Whilst it's extremely unlikely that a Violin Oil varnish is going to be as tough and durable as Rockhard that doesn't necessarily mean that every Violin Oil varnish is unsuitable.for Guitars. Some makers use Tru-oil or Danish oil. both of which seem to act like a long oil Varnish, comparatively soft. I have traditional oil varnishes that seem harder and tougher than Tru-oil - and some by quite a margin.
Fultons terpene resin has been described as 'soft, takes an imprint readily and never really gets hard'. On the other hand Joe Robson (who knows a thing or two about varnishes) said that he knew of a Violin (varnished with Fultons) that had been played every single day for some 12 years and the Varnish had next to no signs of wear. That's the problem really, you need to know how the varnish behaves over time and you can't treally do that without trying it. Talking to someone like Joe Robson though will narrow it down.
It's also true that these varnishes aren't cheap. They are usually made in small batches by specialist makers using very high quality ingredients. Even making home brewed stuff isn't that cheap, it's also time consuming and potentially dangerous. Having said that the cost per instrument can still be justified on a handmade Guitar. If some makers are using tuners that cost the best part of $1,000 I don't think that $15 or $20 of varnish is too much of a stretch.
You will also need a UV drying cabinet, these Varnishes dry slowly. Even with added driers they don't seem to dry as fast as something like Rockhard.

Laurent,
Did you tell me that Behlens has changed their Rock Hard formulation recently? Possibly making it either softer and more amber in color? My memory isn't the greatest so excuse me if I am off base.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Tim, IME Rockhard became a tad more opaque with a very slight greenish tint about 2 years ago. It is subtle, although guitars finished with Rockhard before 2 years ago are not as amber, for the same finish thickness (about .004").
Rockhard didn't become softer, drying time is the same, as is consistency. Although the last can I opened seemed marginally thicker. BTW after using another varnish for a few months I came back to Rockhard.

On the subject of violin "boutique" oil varnishes, it is something that pops up regularly. Most are a little too soft for a steel string, and the drying time for some will drive most builders nuts. Besides, unlike the guitar, the violin is held away from the player's body, and most new violins sport an "antiqued" finish. Traditionally there is also no finish on the neck.

I equate a "softer" oil varnish for a steel string with a shellac finish: it's not for every player. Most steel-stringers would also mind the "Flamenco" look on a relatively new and expensive luthier's guitar.

Tru-oil is not a bad product, but why settling for a softer/more labour intensive/lesser quality finish when better alternatives exist?

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

It's my understanding, (passed through a couple generations that Violin varnish is pretty heavy (meaning weight) and part of it's purpose is to kill some of the...screech. I don't think that would be good on a steel string. My Great Grandfather built violins. My Grandfather said he assembled and played one without any varnish and it had a harsh tone, like fingernails on a chalkboard. He then finished it and it had a nice warm tone. I've got a Violin he built, and it's warm and mellow sounding. I don't know if the Varnish has anything to do with the warm tone or not.
Laurnet (and anyone else) do you spray Rockhard?

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Woody, there is a common misconception about oil varnishes. Varnish can mean almost anything BTW…
A lot of people equate oil varnish with a penetrating oil finish such as linseed, tung or walnut oil. I never did an oil finish, I am not attracted by the look. Perhaps it would have a detrimental effect on tone, especially on a softwood such as spruce. Mainly damping I would assume.
But who would know without trying?

An oil varnish, especially a short oil varnish such as Rockhard (short= short in oil, meaning a harder, less flexible varnish), is as penetrating as lacquer, shellac, poly, urethane etc. meaning not very much if at all. Actually the main issue with Rockhard is adhesion: it peels right off if not applied properly.
I've finished a few guitars with Rockhard without any kind of sealer, even on the top, and heard no difference whatsoever.
I am one to believe that it is not the kind of finish that matters, providing it has all the qualities required for a guitar, but the final thickness of the film.

I spray my varnish with a touch-up HVLP gun, although I brushed my first dozen or so guitars.
Life is too short.

BTW the violin makers I know use a considerably thinned varnish, much thinner than what comes out of my spray gun.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

As Laurent says, 'oil varnish' can mean almost anything. There are a half dozen or so natrual drying oils, and maybe a couple of dozen natural resins that you could use, not to mention synthetics. You can mix any resin(s) with any oil(s) in any proportion from 2:1 (short oil or 'rubbing') to 1:2 (long oil or 'spar'). Then you cook the mess to cause the resin and oil to co-polymerize. The final proprties will depend not only on what you use, but how long and how hot you cook it, and how long it takes to heat up and cool off, and how long it's held at the peak temperature. The author of the standard reference on artist's materials says that's it's impossible to make varnish consistently in batchs of less then 200 gallons. Strad's varnish was notably inconsistent.

Schleske, in a pretty wide ranging study of violin finishes that also included shallac and nitro, found that oils tended to add a lot of damping, and that any finish that contained oil tended to do the same. However, as Laurent points out, plain oil penetrates very deeply: a coat of linseed oil can go right through a 1mm violin rib in a year or so. Varnish doesn't penetrate that much, and if you put it on thin it probably won't add too much damping.

I use 'Rockhard' varnish on the backs and sides of all sorts of guitars, and on the tops of steel strings. I still go with French polish on classical tops.

I was just told a while ago that Collings was using 'Epifanes' varnish, and is now switching over to Rockhard.

I use Epifanes. I've finished 6 guitars with it. I tried a bunch of "varnishes" on scrap. I didn't like the way Rockhard sprayed, (or at least the way I sprayed it). I use an accelerator with the Epifanes, but I still wait 24 hours between coats. You have to scuff sand between coats. I've buffed it 24 hours after the last coat, but I usually wait 48. I wonder why Collings changed?

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Mohawk and Sherwin Williams have "Conversion varnishes" that use a catalyst to accelerate drying and hardness. Does anyone have any experience with these products? They are marketed for "high end" furniture products. Mohawk CV products can be purchased in gallons but SW products are only available in 5 gallon pails or drums.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I haven't used CVs but have read a lot of reports that they are not good for a multi-coat finish. Supposedly if you get over 3 mils thickness they will crack.

It may be that the slow drying time of the Epifanes was the problem. I _have_ had some problems with the first coat of 'Rockhard'; sometimes it takes as much as a week to fully dry. The biggest problems have been with Macassar ebony, but some other woods, siuch as pau ferro, will do that too, and it's not every piece that does. I surmise it's oils in the wood that cause the problem: it does not seem to be temperature or humidity related. Wiping down with acetone does not help. If you put a coat over it before the first one sets up, the first coat never cures, and eventually the whole thing just peels off. A UV light speeds things up considerably. Once the first coat is hard the rest will be ready to sand and re-coat within four hours.

Which Epiphanes Varnish are y'all discussing? There are multiple variations.

I use the "Gloss Clear Varnish". I also tried the "Woodfinish Gloss". I didn't like the way the "wood finish gloss" sprayed and it didn't seem to me like it had the clarity of the "Gloss Clear" . I use 10% accelerator (Epifanes) by weight, and the 50/50 mix with epifanes spray thinner. I spray 4 coats, and end up, after buffing with a thickness of .005".

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I need to add, I've been told that Collings uses, or used Epifanes. I don't know which product they may have used, or if they even used it at all. I didn't "bother" them by calling, because I wasn't going to use something (or not use something) because of what someone else done.
I don't want to mis inform anyone about products used by someone else.

Tim, I tried some Mohawk conversion varnish on scrap, along with several other "varnishes". I've got a friend that uses it in his cabinet shop. It's hard as a rock, but not flexible at all. I cracked it flexing a 4"X8" piece of Rosewood I had sprayed it on. I have no idea what the "conversion" means in "conversion varnish".

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Woody, I am pretty sure "conversion" and catalyzed are the same thing whereas you need to add another component to make the finish chemically cure.

Al, When you experienced problems with Rock Hard applied to Macassar did you seal the bare wood first with shellac or some other sealer or just apply RH to the bare wood? I have read elsewhere that varnish can have curing problems applied directly to bare wood because of reactions to the oils in the wood. Zinsser recommends sealing oily woods with their Bullseye shellac (which contains wax). The wax will add a protective barrier between the resins, oils, sap etc... in the wood from the topcoat.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Thanks for the tip. I have tried sealing with the shellac I use for French polishing, which is wax free, and that doesn't help. I do have non-dewaxed shellac, and I'll have to try that.