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Hi everyone,

Please see the attached image. My question is if you get a piece of wood like Flatsawn Z (see image) can you turn it on end and cut it so that the cut piece is quarter sawn ?

I ask because I found a large piece of wood at a dealer nearby. It looked flat sawn, but it was 3 inches thick. So he simply cut the wood from the 3 inch thick side, cut me a 1 inch slice for my neck blank. So now when you look a the endgrain, with the 3 inch side down on the table, then grains run quarter sawn (well mine are less than quarter, more like 75 degree angle, but much better than flatsawn.

So is my neck really quartsawn ? And actually since it is not a perfect quartersawn about more like 75% angled, can I still use it for neck stock ? It is Spanish Cedar.


Thanks
John


PS - image from another thread -

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

exactly ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Yes it is really quarter sawn. Or as you noted a little off quartered but the concept is correct. If you can get thick enough flat sawn the edge is quartered and you can use that and it becomes the face of your new quarter sawn board.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Yep, and you can take those exact same flatsawn boards, laminate them to something else (for example a maple/rosewood/maple sandwich), turn them up sideways and voila', you have a laminated neck that is quartersawn...which can be made using thinner boards.

Pretty cool, eh?

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

So my grain lines run at 55 degrees now - will this be strong enough for a classical neck ?

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

The grain orientation isn't that important as far as strength and stiffness goes (where's the opening-a-can-of-worms emoticon?) for your application: it has only a very minor effect if any (and usually contrary to what you think when it's there).

1/4-sawn wood is typically more dimensionally stable than flat sawn wood.

Edit: so if your neck blank would be strong enough with perfectly 1/4'd wood, it will be strong enough with off 1/4 wood - it just might shrink and expand a bit more than the 1/4'd wood...or not.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Flat sawn necks are stronger than quarter sawn.

I would have to disagree. In my opinion, technically you would have VG(vertical grain), which in your case was obtained without quartersawing. This is something that seems to be heavily debated among sawyers. Some truly QS. Others claim QS but end product usually is not vertical grain, but leaning more toward bastard sawn(rift). You have vertical grain, or close to it. Good Enough.

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It is better to try and fail, than never try at all

I would have to disagree. In my opinion, technically you would have VG(vertical grain), which in your case was obtained without quartersawing. This is something that seems to be heavily debated among sawyers. Some truly QS. Others claim QS but end product usually is not vertical grain, but leaning more toward bastard sawn(rift). You have vertical grain, or close to it. Good Enough.

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It is better to try and fail, than never try at all

Huh ?
What are you disagreeing with ? And what is debated amongst sawyers ? And how does one get a quarter sawn board without quarter sawing it. (this is rhetorical)
I am confused.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Quarter-sawn woods are only stronger/more stable along wood rays. The necks of violin family are perfectly flat-sawn.

Link, it is rhetorical (therefore not worth debate)
forestryforum.com

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It is better to try and fail, than never try at all

I am not asking for debate, I was asking for clarification. You said you disagreed but proceeding your disagreement there were at least 3 different points raised in the various post so I wondered which one you disagreed with.
Other than that, In re-reading your post and putting the emphasis on the words differently I get what you are saying. Not your fault but sometimes when reading something it can be confusing where as If I heard you say it I would get it right away. That is the problem with writing sometimes. So part of the not getting what you were saying was I wasn't reading it right.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Flatsawn neck are stronger than quartersawn? I don't understand why... Quartersawn is stronger in general, less flexible... than what we want for necks, no?

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

I'm not sure about the stiffness debate, but Andy was correct about the stability. Let's call it "perceived" stability. Quarter sawn woods expand and contract, too, but not in ways that are as perceivable. A quarter sawn neck, for example, will tend to get thicker and thinner (imperceptibly) with changes in humidity, but it won't tend to become wider or narrower--at least not in ways that you are likely to see or feel.

On what do you base this?

That's my way of saying it isn't true. When there are differences in modulus between 1/4'd and flat, it's usually the flat sawn that's stiffer. There can be some arguments made that 1/4'd may have a higher yield point though depending on how it's carved. e.g. let's say you have a two beams, one 1/4 sawn and the other flat sawn. It may be that for a given load, the flat sawn deflects less than the 1/4'd but the 1/4'd may fail at a higher load because there's less runout than the flat sawn.

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http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Andy, have you a flatsawn neck to show? I have never seen one other than a strat. don't they swing baseball bats with the flatsawn face forward?

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It is better to try and fail, than never try at all

No, other than I'm looking at a Tele I bought about 20 years ago which also has a flatsawn neck and I'm building a bandura right now which will have a flatsawn neck but I just started shaping the neck today. My parents were dang foreigners who knew nothing of sports so I've swung a bat far fewer times than most people - probably had something to do with me becoming a music dork/small time rock star.

I'm basing what I say on some US forest service data that I found at this site HERE (there's a link at the bottom of the page). There are other sources that corroborate that info and if you really think about it, it makes sense from an engineering standpoint (although there is an exception case too). My Tele's neck is still pretty straight too!

All that said, it's probably worth using a 1/4 sawn neck because of the added stability. Banduras don't have fretted strings, the neck is more a vestigial type of thing so I don't think it matters as much for what I'm doing. But, I personally wouldn't worry about it whatever way it worked out.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com